Why Don't Some Men Take "No" For an Answer?

[Sock_Munkey]

This is wierdly appropriate for this thread isn’t it?

[margin]

This sounds like you don’t ever want a guy to approach you, under any circumstances. Because, what else would a stranger have to go on, other than your appearance? Isn’t that what all initial approaches are based on That was what I was saying was not true.

It’s the approach that’s doing it. Some guy who starts an actual conversation with me is something totally different from some twit who likes long red hair. I’m just not interested in some guy who thinks that my looks are the most interesting thing about me. I’ve yet to have a relationship with somebody who was initially attracted that way, and this is fairly specific, but it’s important. I have a really weird life and I just don’t need shallow guys around me. Nor do I need guys who won’t take ‘no’ for an answer.

As to the double standard, no, not at all. I’m applying the same standard to both parties; something which you seem to be unwilling to do. The women who give in to those guys are not victims; they’re participants in perpetuating the behavior you’re complaining about. If they didn’t reward the jerks, you wouldn’t have to put up with that behavior

Yeah, you’re right I’m unwilling to judge each by the same standard. Show me where pushing and resisting are the same thing. It’s not equal to blame men and women equally for this situation. Look what’s happening in this thread. Women have been saying it’s annoying. Some men just ignore that and say it’s successful because it works. You just get tired out from repeating yourself after awhile. Resisting something unsuccessfully—especially when a lot of people just shrug at it and say it’s ‘successful’ because it works for their side----is not the same as pushing a tactic, and then ignoring objections to it. By that token, any time women fail to change men’s behavior, they’re equally to blame, even though they’re resisting the tactic. I’m speaking in general terms, now, but it seems to me that if you’re going to blame women equally, they should be actively utilizing the same tactic, not resisting it or giving in to it. I have to ask, what about rape victims? I mean, they fit your standard of being part of the problem. They give in, they stop resisting, they say they were overpowered—by that line of reasoning, which equates failure to stop an action with an affinity for it, they must like it. I’m not being sarcastic in the slightest. If women who just give up and go with a guy are to blame for that guy’s actions. I guess no one here can bitch about persistant telemarketers ever again. Because although very few people admit to buying anything from them, there must be people out there who’ve done it, that means that it’s successful.

You know, I used to have this landlord and he used to say that it was totally okay for him to hoot and holler crap out his truck window at women 'because some women like it.' Never mind that every woman I know, and that every women that they knew didn't---as long as there was one woman out there who liked it, for whatever pathetic reason, he felt entitled to be a jerk. 

And, don’t forget the women who enjoy, or even insist on, being doggedly pursued. As long as they exist, the problem will exist. Because, if No can mean No, Maybe, or Not Yet, But Keep Trying, depending on who’s saying it, some men will continue to be persistent.

“But, gee, officer, I * thought * she meant yes!”

From pixelle

I don’t deny that the abhorent pressure tactics you speak of may work on some women, but those women also have problems of their own caused by conditioning. And just because a tactic works doesn’t make it right. If a guy tries that angle he may well end up getting the sex that he wants, but it basically means that he’s not a very nice person and doesn’t really respect women in general.

So, basically, if women give up on this stuff, they’re to blame for not stopping it—not men. Women need to be firm—even though some guys don’t take rejection well, and the guy’s already demonstrated that he’d not taking no for an answer. You have no idea what he might do, and it’s a dangerous world if you’re a woman, but oh, well, deal with it. That is not, evidently, a good reason to be nervous about some strange guy who approaches you and then ignores you when you say no. If you give up, it’s half your fault, even though you weren’t the one pushing and pushing and so on. And even if you say, no, it doesn’t matter, because the word is open for interpretation.

If you want to be a jerk.

You know—the theoretical ‘you.’ ‘If you do this, x will result.’

[Sock_Munkey]

I think a lot of grief could be avoided if more women just actively went after the nice guys instead of waiting around for one to show up and hit on them. It’s hard to always have to be the one to make the first move and risk rejection. If you’re worried that this might make you seem slutty, well you have ask yourself what’s worse, having to explain to the guy you pick up that you aren’t a slut or putting up with a parade of jerks. It’s sort of like having to lock your door. Yes, people shouldn’t walk into your house and take your stuff but if you just go around condemning thievery instead of locking your door then it is partly your own responsibility that you get robbed all the time.

[Davebear]

*Originally posted by margin *
—is not the same as pushing a tactic, and then ignoring objections to it.

You’re arguing with the wrong guy. I certainly wasn’t “pushing” those tactics. I was just explaining why some guys use them. And, I don’t think anyone was ignoring the objections. They were implicitly acknowledged in almost every post; they just weren’t dwelled upon, because they’re not the topic of this thread. If it will make you feel better to have them explicitly acknowledged, here ya’ go. Yes, it must suck for the women who don’t like to be pursued. I’m sorry.

And, I really mean that. Mostly because I believe it’s obnoxious, but also partly because it makes life miserable for those of us who don’t use those tactics, when we have to deal with the aftermath.

As for the rest of that hysterical rant, all I can say is…:rolleyes:
Playing the rape card? Gimme a break!

[Deadly_Nightlight]

I would just like to add, to whom it may concern , I am one of those women that likes a take control guy, not like in a psycho abusive way, but in a niceguy in charge way. Guys who don’t take the hint suck- there is this one guy that has been trying to date me for a year now. I would not dte him because he was engaged at the time. They broke up and he still tried and I told him that I was not interested, but he still tries, sigh

[elfkin477]

*Originally posted by Beadalin *
**Not at all blaming the victim here, but there are women who think they’re being clear in saying “no,” but couch it in nice terms, so that it sounds to the guy like she might change her mind if he just keeps it up. Look at the number of movies–romantic and otherwise–where the guy has to keep wooing the object of his desire (with borderline satalker behavior, usually) to ultimately convince her that she really is interested.

I think a lot of women could stand to learn to be more assertive when saying no; they need to learn not to apologize for it, or qualify it, or feel obligated to be nice if they’re annoyed. It’s OK to reject someone. That doesn’t mean it has to be brutal, but it should be unambiguous. **

I think you’re right about the too nice thing. There are some guys you shouldn’t be nice to. At all. If more women picked up on who they shouldn’t be nice to, there would be fewer guys pestering them.

Let’s say you meet a guy, and you’re completely uninterested in him, at least romantically. If the disinterest is mutual, you can still be nice/friendly to him, since there’s little danger of anything being taken the wrong way. You might even end up friends with him, right? (sure, feelings might change, but they usually don’t)

On the other hand, if you’re uninterested and he starts moaning and complaining- to you- about never finding the “one,” don’t be nice to him. Really. I’ve learned that there’s nothing nice you can say that appropriate in this situation. Saying " Oh, you’ll find someone." Somehow translates, at least to some males, to " You’ll find someone. Me, for instance." I’m not sure how the same polite reassurance you give a female friend with the same complaint sounds different to these guys, but it does. After saying something you thought was nice, it’s a whole lot harder to convince him that you weren’t coyly hinting that you were interested.

If there’s no friendship at stake with desperate hinting guy, don’t even try to be nice, just… don’t talk to him any more than you’re required to. In many cases it’s far better to seem like a distant bitch than deal with someone you accidentally gave false hope to while trying to be nice. Who knows, maybe if you never “lead him on” he’ll get a girlfriend and you won’t have to worry about it.

[margin]

[quote]
As for the rest of that hysterical rant, all I can say is…
Playing the rape card? Gimme a break!

[quote]

Let’s see—‘hysterical’, ‘rant’ and ‘rape card’. Oops, I think your agenda is showing, Davebear. If anyone deserves a break, it’s anyone who has to deal with this pseaudop-sensitive act. YOU blamed women for not resisting effectively, and shrugged off what guys do with a Darwinian survival-of-the-fittest-gesture. Transfer this to the Pit if need be, but the fact remains: You’re justifyng male persistance at all cost, and blaming women for it. If anything’s Pitable, it’s that.

[Dragonstar]

*Originally posted by Kal *
**You can’t go wrong with a push-up bra and a smile. **

No, no, that’s “lipstick and a push-up bra.”

[kuraijo]

*Originally posted by Lizard *
Not to be too blunt about it, but fuck what she “likes.” Life is full of things – cars, clothes, relatives, relationships, come-ons – that aren’t perfect. Only an immature idiot sits around thinking they have the luxury of rejecting people just because they didn’t approach them in exactly the manner they “like” to be approached. Hell, in my mind any woman who acts confused because I took her behavior at face value is a moron, and isn’t worth the trouble.

yep. i totally agree. this playing hard-to-get thing is getting annoying. by the time i summon up enough courage to ask (i’m terribly shy) i expect an honest answer, so expect me to act the way you r body language asks me to.

i’ve never believed in this hard-to-get thing. after numerous conversations with female classmates a quick poll revealed that none of them do that. playing hard-to-get doesn’t do much for you in the long-term: showing that you have your own schedule and isn’t available for every date will make your other appreciate your much more though. in other words, girls, what you need to change is not the way you court men, but how important courting men is to you. a date is not worth flunking college, no matter how many times you make him ask.

[kuraijo]

*Originally posted by margin *
**Crap. something else I forgot, too. If you do turn down a guy really bluntly, you get called a bitch or worse—and no one sees anything wrong with it, either. **

vice-versa happens too. and one week later none of the girls in college want you anymore.

gossip kills.

[Beagle]

No simple answer to this one.

1. She’s just playing hard to get.
2. She really wants me, I can tell.
3. Never give up on someone you really like.
4. She’s my soulmate.
5. The voices in my head tell me she’s the one.
6. Her liver would be good with some fava beans and a nice chianti.