Why don't you idiots calm down?

Then I am doomed.

I’m still not convinced that this is really vanilla posting here.

I apologize in advance if this question has been asked before, but where do you draw the line on this point? Isn’t it equally the inerrant word of God that you should murder witches etc. etc.? Surely we can fault the televangelists who tell their followers that all the bad things that have happened to the nation are because we’re secularizing and treating gays and atheists as human beings, can’t we?

I do. How about “Follow my example, and you will get closer to God. Keep doing what you’re doing, and you can stay miserable barbarians who chop off limbs for minor infractions.”

As for your implication that that particular line is the be-all and end-all of Christianity, some people, who are probably smarter than you, beg to differ.

Or “No one comes to the Father, but through my sacrifice.”

Hey, IANAC, but to this heathen that line sure sounds less like a religious comment and more like dialogue from some bad melodrama …


LUCIFER leads a swarm of IMPISH MINIONS as he strides his way up to the pearly gates of Heaven, brutally pushing aside some cherubs here and there. Just as he reaches the gates, the way is barred to him by the suddenly manifesting figure of a white-clad JESUS. Much squealing and gasping from the IMPISH MINIONS as they scurry to hide behind their master. LUCIFER is taken aback but quickly recovers his aplomb.

LUCIFER (snarling and waving his pitchfork): Outta my way, sonny-boy!

Unintimidated, JESUS smiles and folds His arms across His chest.

JESUS: I don’t think so, 'Bub.

LUCIFER: That’s MISTER Beelzebub to you! (Switching tactics) Okay, let’s be reasonable. Thing is, we’re not so different, You and me. I’ve got a job to do, You’ve got a job to do … Hell, I put my raimants on one hoof at a time, same as everyone else, right?

JESUS says nothing, but starts humming “Devil in a Blue Dress.” LUCIFER turns even redder and loses his temper again.

LUCIFER: All right, that’s it. Like it or not, You sanctimonious, light-in-the-sandals Hippie, me and my boys are gonna run this territory from now on –

JESUS (chuckling): You didn’t happen to skate to work today, did you?

LUCIFER: – You know it, I know it, even the freakin’ cherubim and seraphim know it. I’ve been preparing for this Heaven takeover for eons – ever since God kicked me out. Well, Your dear decrepit old Daddy’s not gonna be in charge for much longer. He’s history once I get my hands on Him!

JESUS loses a fraction of his pleasant demeanor.

JESUS: Oh, Lucy. (softly) You really shouldn’t have said that.

LUCIFER (snickering and playing to his MINIONS): Oh, no? And why not? Don’t forget, Your apostle thugs aren’t around to protect–

JESUS lurches forward and suddenly grabs LUCIFER’s collar, pulling him up until their faces are inches apart. He whispers so quietly only Lucifer can hear him.

JESUS: I don’t need no stinkin’ apostles, shmuck. Now listen up and listen good. Anyone wanting a piece of My Dad has to go through Me first. There is no other way to God but through Me! Capiche?

Lucifer stares into his rival’s steely brown gaze for one tense moment, finally blinking. A curl of smoke escapes from his left nostril.

LUCIFER (muttering): All right, damn You. You’ve won for now. (Loudly, with an attempt at bravado) Now let me go, Joshua ben Joseph – or whatever you’re calling yourself these days!

Releasing Lucifer, Jesus reverts to his more placid, elegant demeanor

JESUS: Certainly. I’m glad you’ve decided to see the error of your ways, O foul, fallen one.

*LUCIFER spins around and stalks off, followed by his evil coterie. After watching him leave, JESUS smiles beatifically at the cherubim and seraphim – as if butter wouldn’t melt in His mouth. He pats one on the head, then reenters Heaven, gently closes the pearly gates behind Him.

CLOSE-UP as He turns around, staring through the golden bars into the camera.*

JESUS: And by the way … the name is Christ. (Meaningful pause) Jesus Christ.

(FADE)

Beautiful. I’ve got my eye on you, Choie! :cool:

Guess you missed post #293 where I conceded that point.

In any case, the “Atheists for Jesus” you linked to may be “smarter than me”, but somehow I doubt you can argue they speak for Christianity. Since the discussion was about what Christians believe, I fail to see how their beliefs are relevent. Because they have a web page?

I suppose you could argue that the original word (or the old interpretation of the bible) should always be followed, times change and the religion needs to evolve with the people. I know lots of people who consider themselves good Catholics, but practice birth control. The world isn’t the same place it was 2000 years ago, and it is a ridiculous notion to think that what was good for people centuries ago is still good for people now.

So the old “BUT THE BIIIIIBLE SAID SO!!” argument in itself is stupid. The bible said lots of things that have nothing to do with love. If Vanilla and her gang of thugs want to associate with a religion that is clearly hateful – one that marginalizes entire groups of people (gays, women), that’s their perogative. But for them to say they align themselves with the message of love is so far off the beam it is comical. And by comical, I mean pathetic, supremist, transparent, ugly, and (or so you’d think) embarrassing. But hey…they’re the ones that have to look at themselves in the mirror each morning. We’ll see who’s shittin’ ‘n’ gittin’ on judgement day (hint: I’d be shopping for asbestos underwear if I were them).

Revtim it’s a little after the fact, but I’d hate for you to think I was ignoring you.
And yes, as other posters have said, I interpret that line to read that we must emulate Christ.

Folks, I need your help.

In a private e-mail, Vanilla has said in this thread she exempted me from her comments about saying anything to be popular and watering down the Gospel. I haven’t seen that, but as I told her, my eyes are bad enough that I’m now wearing bifocals. If someone can give me a page number and/or post number in which she said that, I will be very much in your debt. If she didn’t, I’d appreciate knowing that, too, much as I regret the harm it will do.

Thanks, and I will get back to you,
CJ (Siege)

I have had a couple of emails linking me to this thread and asking what I thought about it/why haven’t I posted to it. I doubt anyone else cares, but just to be clear, I am firmly in the Duck Duck Goose corner. I have been involved in this same kind of thread before with other posters, and to my regret I was never able to express myself well enough to please me. There is a very fine line between being judgemental vs wimping out/compromising one’s beliefs, and I have never found the right words to explain what I think and how I feel about it.

DDG did a marvelous job of explaining how I feel about it, so I didn’t think there was any reason to pipe up. My thanks to the people who felt my input was needed, but…I don’t think it was. Others have said it far more eloquently and much better than I ever could.

I liked their argument that the Sermon On The Mount was Jesus’ Big Moment, and instead of saying “Worship Me,” He chose to use that opportunity to say; “Follow my example, be humble and charitable and merciful and reach out to your fellow man.” It’s just logical that that would be His central message. If people couldn’t get closer to The Father by doing those things, why would he have bothered to deliver the Sermon that he did?

I believe the words vanilla is thinking of were these:

That was at the end of post number 201. I can tell you that it didn’t strike me as exempting you, but then I wasn’t sure just what the heck she meant by it. Best I could figure out was: (a) you weren’t consciously pandering to the anti-Christian Dopers, and didn’t need to because (b) your brand of religion is already watered down enough to make you popular.

Oh, and one thing that I don’t think has been brought up here.

The Bible exhorts Christians to present the good news of salvation. It is NOT OUR JOB TO CONVERT ANYONE. It is our responsibility to present the path to God…it is the Holy Spirit’s job to take it from there. So all this talk about a person watering down the gospel so that people will like us? I mean, if a person lies about their beliefs so that people will like them, then that is obviously wrong/a sin/deceptive/lying/devious behavior. If we start trying to be the Holy Spirit and convict other people of sin, it looks to me like sacrilege. There is a middle ground somewhere, and I believe that THAT is where we are supposed to dwell.

Since the Bible states with certainty that “ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God”, I don’t think there is any point in pointing at anyone and listing what you perceive to be THEIR sins. We all sin. ALL of us. Being judgemental is a sin. Jealousy is a sin. Hate is a sin. I could go on and on…but why bother? The fact is, we ALL sin. I sin, way more often than I like to think. DDG sins. Siege sins. vanilla sins. I thank God every day that I am not the one who is going to have to judge whether anyone is or is not going to make it to heaven…I am not even remotely qualified to make that judgement, since I am a sinner myself. I have accepted Christ’s sacrifice on my behalf, and I am a forgiven sinner…but that doesn’t mean I am not a sinner. Do I believe that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ? Yes, I definitely do. Is it my responsibility to say so? Yes, it certainly is. Is it my responsibility to beat anyone over the head with whatever sin I think they are committing? No, it is NOT. Is it my responsibility to “save” ANYONE? It would be sacrilege for me to think I COULD.

I can only present my beliefs and try, with God’s help, to live my life in such a way that people will see Christ through me. Something I know I fail at more than I succeed. And I can hope and pray that I will one day see my loved ones in heaven. But it is their choice to believe or to not believe, and it is not MY responsibility to convict them of sin. I don’t have to anyway, since WE ALL SIN!!! It is also not my job to decide who has accepted God’s grace and who hasn’t. Only God knows a person’s heart.

Once again, I am pretty sure I haven’t been able to express myself in such a way that you all will understand what I think and feel. But I guess I have done the best I could.

I’m a bit puzzled, if anyone could help me out I’d be very grateful.

All the Christians I know, and indeed most of the one’s I read here, agree with the “Jesus said to love one another” bit as being highly important.

So if anyone’s watering down any gospel, wouldn’t it be the one’s liberally throwing hate around willy-nilly?

Good question, and difficult to answer.

See, the ones perceived as throwing hate around believe that they are actually loving their neighbor by pointing out the error of their ways.

Some of us don’t agree that this is the best way to show Christ’s love.

See? Difficult.

On the contrary, you’ve done a bang-up job of it. I wish the Christians who feel compelled to Bible-bash the unbelievers would instead follow your path.

For what it’s worth, I think it’s a lot easier to surrender one’s critical faculties to an authority figure, and blindly follow that figure’s dictates no matter where they lead, than to confront each day’s ambiguities and dilemmas seeking the way of right conduct through reasoned, compassionate application of one’s faith and moral code.

I’d be interested in knowing how many of them have actually managed to draw people closer to God, or if they just find harbor in the “Blessed are ye when men shall revile thee” beatitude.

It doesn’t equate to “Heaven-bound are ye when men revile ye for telling them they will roast in the fiery pits of Hell unless they convert TODAY!”

I’ve asked around a time or two and have yet to get a cogent answer. Then again, I’m not exactly exuberantly searching for people to tell me I’m going to Hell in an attempt to convert me so I can ask them this, so maybe more research is needed.

And FWIW ETF, I thought vanilla was being sarcastic there, but then one never knows unless one asks for clarification.

I think the most important post was just about buried in this mess. I like vanilla, she makes me laugh and I appreciate what she adds to the board. But there are some personality tendencies I have seen that may explain the apparent changes in her beliefs.

I don’t believe for a second that her beliefs have remained constant for years, and she has been suppressing them. I, like Diane, have met all of the previous vanillas through threads in past years. There is a clear tendency for her belief systems to swing with the breeze. I think today’s vanilla is just the latest manifestation of someone who allows her most closely held beliefs to be determined by the factors influencing her at this point in time.

I wouldn’t lay odds against a slow drift into wiccanism with a brief pit stop to Buddhism over the next few years. This is why I don’t find the abrupt Fundamentalism overly disturbing. I can’t take it seriously and hardly think that evangelizing in the form vanilla chooses to do it is likely to convert even the most simple minded of souls.

I am not the spiritually searching type, so perhaps I have a natural lack of understanding for the existential angst that seems to be quite the rage here. I live my life as decently as I can and I hope that if there is a God he will probably be OK with that. I know many people go through periods of their youth where their beliefs are challenged and evolve. At some point though you have to decide who you are and what you believe. I wish you luck in that quest vanilla, but I wish you would spend less time evangelizing and a little more time on self-examination.

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Is it safe to assume that any poster who does not use the wordwrap feature but instead finishes each line in the editor with a hard carriage return has taken a trip off the deep end?

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