Has anyone accused Shodan of being racist? I haven’t seen it. I’ll accuse him of a lot of things, but racism ain’t one of them.
Nor was I. I hope my post was clear: there are two other reactions to the situation possible, apart from Shodan’s completely non-racist one. Both other reactions involve racism, one in fact and one in mistaken attribution.
Let’s see now, got to plan the celebration, tradition demands certain things… Ah! Here we go, “Prodigal Son Services, fatted calves, wine, party favors for welcoming one who stumbles from the path of political error…” Just the thing!
OK, counselor! Ready when you are. Do let us know!
No that’s not the point at all and it’s already been explained why.
So if I call Obama a spear chucka it’s not racist because I specifically mentioned him rather than referring to all black men? Comon man, you know better than that.
Perhaps you could comment specifically on a couple of things.
There’s a long and well known history of black men being compared to apes. Yes or NO?
On a scale of 1 {not likely} to 10 {almost certainly} what are the chances that an older southern man was aware of that long history?
It’s honest to say we can’t be sure the intent was racist but given the facts it’s a distinct possibility. Can’t you admit that?
I’m not at all interested in crying racism every time Obama is criticized. I’m not interested in parsing every phrase for possible racism. It’s cool that we’ve grown up enough to have a serious black nominee. Now that we’ve done that let’s focus on the issues. I don’t give a rats ass if T shirt man is a racist or not. The history of that comparison exists and now he knows it’s in very bad taste to have and/or sell those shirts. That’s all the news value it has to me.
Try to stay relevant and respond to points I actually made rather than things I never implied in any way. The question of racism arises in this case not because of any criticism of any candidate. It arises because of the long history and widely known racist association that’s been pointed out to you.
Granted we can’t know the intent of the T shirt man’s heart. That’s leaves the possibility of racist intent open rather than closed.
I’ve been a fan of McCain myself. I look for politicians who don’t use too much political double talk and demonstrate they have a sincere interest in doing what’s best for the public they serve. McCain fit the bill for me. He’s has had the courage to speak plainly and disagree with his party on certain issues. He has tried to address the money problem in Washington and the perils of lobbyists and special interests buying policy. I listened to his town halls in 2000 and was impressed.
Unfortunately the GOP allowed Bush and Rove to undermine McCain’s campaign in very nasty dishonest ways and then rewarded them with the nomination, and they rewarded us with the mess we’re in now.
In these past few months I’ve seen McCain as a very different candidate than he was then. He has changed his position on a number of key issues to bring himself more in line with Bush policies all the while he tries to maintain a distance. I’m not sure what the problem is but those factors have been enough for me to loose the faith I had in him. I can’t seriously consider his stance on issues years ago that I would have approved of if he keeps changing his mind now. I sincerely feel he’s sold his integrity for a shot at the Oval office, and that worries me. IMO that means he’ll likely operate the same as our Bush experience. Say whatever it takes
to get into office and after that it’s a different agenda pushed by other influences.
You said you liked Obama’s message of change and honest reasoned debate about the issues.
I’m saying that if the GOP was more focused on an honest debate about the relevant issues in 2000 then Bush wouldn’t have won. They’d have rejected Rovian tactics the way they’re being rejected now.
We definitely don’t see eye to eye on that. I think Bush and cronies are lying scumbags who took us to war to pursue their own agenda. To line the pockets of your cooperate buddies at the expense, of the taxpayers and with American and Iraqi blood is morally reprehensible.
In the sense that voting for McCain seems like a Bush repeat rather than an honest debate about the issues from a conservative or liberal view I agree with Bosstone
I do think we need to clarify that so honest republican conservatives understand we welcome that honest debate. Arguments that smack of unintelligent sweeping condemnations of either group doesn’t help. It’s not problem solving and we sure have problems that need to be solved.
Those significant changes require our continued push and work.
Several years ago a friend of mine said I was a lot like most people in this country concerning politics. I paid attention for a few months during an election cycle and then I forgot about. I didn’t continue to see what our elected officials were doing.
I think if we want Obama to deliver then we have to deliver as well. We have to reject dishonest sound bite politics and media. We have to make demands of our elected officials for the change we want and throw them the hell out of office if they won’t deliver. Both parties will have good people and bad ones. It’s our job as citizens to take the time and make the effort to sift them out. Obama won’t deliver on those promises without our commitment to making it happen.
I get your point even though I don’t agree. it’s not a question of legitimacy . It’s a question of the intent. The Bush/chimp picture was an obvious jab at his intelligence. Someone is saying Bush is stupid. If someone said Obama is stupid that’s the same insult. I think you said something like that in another thread. Nobody cried racism about it did they? If that was the intent of the Ts then fine. It’s the history and common knowledge factor of the racial insult that raises a legitimate question.
If I just happen to like the swastika design and display it outside my house is it reasonable to ignore how my neighbors might feel about it?
Obama doesn’t seem to have any problem dealing with attacks hasn’t asked for any special treatment.
I saw Europeans hanging effigies of Bush during protests. Does that mean it now okay for to hang an effigy of Obama and nobody should make any racial connection? It’s naive to wave the historical context away.
Sad but true. I find reasonable and the unreasonable folks in both parties. The only thing I can do is too keep pleading for a reasoned discussion on the issues and actual facts.
Um…yeah…thanks for that.
I agree completely.
The idea that the people who voted for Bush in 2000, and *especially *in 2004, have the temerity to tell *anyone *how to vote in this election simply boggles the mind. They had their chance to elect a good President, failed miserably, but we’re supposed to believe that they know best for the country *this *time?
I don’t think so.
“The government which governs best is the government which governs least” is a statement I’ll get behind a vast majority of the time. On the other hand, when unprecedented numbers of my fellow citizens, including groups which were traditionally apolitical such as young women, are speaking with a remarkably unified voice about a certain position/candidate/policy it behooves me, as a believer in democracy, to listen and consider if they may have a point. Although my vote is my own, the government it helps shape belongs to all my fellow citizens as well as me. Since most of them were previously apathetic layabouts who are just now beginning to pull some of their weight, I think they need encouragement. I admit I’m a bit perverse in this aspect, I frequently “throw my vote away” encouraging third parties because I believe the two-party system needs to be shaken up, perhaps completely reformed. In accordance with that principle, I’d hate for record numbers of new voters to have their faces slapped in their first foray into politics. Driving them back into apathy can’t be good, long term, even if it means my personal preferences are met in the short term.
Economically Obama pisses me off. Implementing the policies he states on his “Economy” portion of the website will cost a ton of money, and probably not work nearly as well as he and/or his advisors think they will. Case in point, on his “Economy” issues page
Sounds good on paper, but how many people would be likely to use such a service? The demand for continuing education has been pretty flat(PDF, table 10.2 on page 132) over the past decade. If there’s no demand, is this just a “if you build it, they will come” type program? I don’t think those are good ideas in general, and I see a number of them in Obama’s Economic plan. Small fry mostly, but it smacks of the “make work” programs of the New Deal, some of which worked, many of which didn’t.
I can think of half a dozen other scenarios. My personal favorite is opening up the pocketbook, but taking a back seat as far as the governing. Having the UN or NATO, or hell even the Arab League, administrating most of the Iraqi rebuilding, with the US just demanding transparency, not control, in exchange for our free-flowing dollars(they’ll be free flowing no matter what, we may as well get some value from them).
I think America’s pre-eminence on the global stage is either at, or near the end. As someone with more than half my life still in front of me, I see my future as an international one. Country first is an attitude I’m not sure we can afford when the average US citizen consumes far more per capita than most of the developing world. A world which is hungry for more and outnumbers us ten to one or more. Having China keep itself artificially poor while they prop up our ability to spend ourselves silly isn’t sustainable and they’re going to have to change that policy. I’d rather they think well of us when they write a new one than decide to screw us over as much as possible.
This sounds like opinion-poll driven politics to me. Not a huge fan of that style. Can you elaborate on how your approach differs?
Enjoy,
Steven
I think you’re slightly missing my point. Did you honestly believe, during the Clinton presidency, that Clinton was likely to end up as one of the worst presidents ever? And while you might have believed it about Carter (and heck, history might judge you to be right), Carter wasn’t reelected. The way that liberals and democrats feel about the Bush presidency, his re-election, and the state of the country is not just the same old way that every out-of-power group feels after someone they didn’t vote for was president for 8 years. Again, I’m not asking you to agree that Bush is even in the running for worst president, or even that those who think so have a shred of evidence for thinking so, merely that we are sincere in our belief, however wrongheaded it is.
And sadly he threw away much of that goodwill by being a big douchebag recently. Although he was admittedly in a tough spot…
Huh? I’m not saying anything about McCain. I’m saying that by hanging around the SDMB and getting into contentious debates at this point in history, you are basically begging to be exposed to lots of angry and not-particularly-rational liberals and democrats. If you are currently seeing more douchebaggery, demagoguery, hate and/or irrationality coming from supporters of Obama than from supporters of McCain, part of that is almost certainly due to where you choose to spend your virtual time.
There is definitely some truth to your point. And it speaks well of the Texas Republican party (who, believe me, I rarely say nice things about 
) that they apologized and banned the guy who was selling the buttons. But even though one guy selling buttons at a convention is minor-and-not-represenatitive of the party, he’s closer to being real news than some-guy-posting-on-a-message-board.
Liberal did, in post #54. Or at least that’s how I interpreted his accusation that I was making attacks on black people in general.
Actually, I was responding to the opposite assertion - that even specific mentions of Obama are racist because he is black.
But we are not talking about “spear chucker” or “nigger” or anything like that - we are specifically discussing an insult that can be, and has been, applied equally to a white politician and to a black one.
Regards,
Shodan
Tomato, tomato. Ultimately, a democracy is a “poll-driven” political system, the formal poll being the voting booth. We have failed democracy far more than it has failed us, we are content to let things mumble along so long as we are untroubled. As a result, the Apathy Party has been in power lo, these many years. We moonbats hope to energize the people to take charge of the government, as we believe it hardly matters how big the government is, so long as we own it.
As a corollary, we support public education to the nth degree, a better educated populace is a better citizenry, that education tends to foster a more liberal political stance is merely a happy coincidence. (Furiously batting big, brown, innocent eyes…)
But will the people make mistakes? Well, of course, they are people. Democracy is not more efficient or more productive, it is simply more just. It is more just to be ruled by a crowd of people no smarter than you than to be ruled by an elite, equally no smarter than you.
Except the motivation is what makes something racist. Did people paint Bush as a chimp because he’s white or because they think he’s stupid? Did people paint Obama as an ape because they think he’s stupid or because he’s black?
The answer to the first question is: Because he’s stupid. No way it was done because he’s white.
To the second: Can’t know absolutely for sure, but likely it was because he’s black. Obama does not have the reputation for being stupid.
Absolutely - you’re sincere in your belief, and, hell – you even have more than a shred of evidence on your side.
OK, fair enough.
ALso true.
Except it’s perfectly clear that it isn’t equal in all cases. The chimp comparison is inappropriate to any black man whether he’s running for office or not precisely because of it’s long history and widely acknowledged use as a racial slur. It has nothing to do with fair criticism of Obama as a candidate.
If we referred to Bush as a redneck stupid hick would it be appropriate for other Texans or southerners to be offended. Since It is a referral to an intentionally insulting stereotype the answer is yes.
No matter how amazing Obama may be, many people have been conditioned over the years to think in a hyperpartisan manner, and this conditioning isn’t easy to break through. Give it time.
I’m cool with agreeing to disagree.
You can’t go by reputation when deciding about this. Republican Presidents are always painted as stupid. It’s a stereotype. Compare Bush and Gore, for instance - Bush with an MBA from Harvard, Gore flunked out of law school and divinity school. But in 2000, Bush was the one painted as stupid.
But you are arguing in a circle. We can’t paint Obama as stupid because he doesn’t already have a reputation as stupid, because it might be mistaken for racism.
Like I said, this can be easily dealt with by ignoring it. If Obama makes speeches where he claims to see ghosts, or when he doesn’t know how many states there are in the Union, then it is perfectly legitimate to paint him as stupid. You can call it racism if you like, but it is no different than the treatment any other politician is going to get if he/she runs for President.
Regards,
Shodan