Why I believe in God, by XXX

The BBQ Pit
41

Oh my gosh. She sounds young, and very, very naive. To say that in an attempt to “convert” you is stretching it. She should have known that it would not be an effective thing to tell you.

However, with that said, I have to agree with Hamlet and jarbaby and others here. So what? So what if she interprets some small thing as an act of God’s kindness? Can’t she interpret these random things any way she wishes? Since you (as an atheist) think this God thing is a bunch of hooey, why be especially amazed that this girl saw this small thing as an act of God? Why is this any more (or less) absurd to you (as an atheist) than the Virgin Birth, or Noah’s Ark? They’re all fiction as far as you are concerned. So why single this episode out as a topic of derision?

Whenever some person tells me such a story, I smile and share in their joy. I mean, for all I know, it’s true. It very likely is true, at least in my belief system, so who am I to decide what can and cannot be an act of God? God is good, after all. So, what is the harm in saying “That’s nice?” and not thinking any more about it? Why do we all have to be so damned smart and clever and judgmental, that we have to be secretly laughing behind other people’s backs about such stuff?

And I’ll add to that. Countless times I have felt like God helped me avoid an accident in bad traffic (I won’t relay the individual episodes here, but a few were a bit surreal). I have many personal tales. I don’t usually share them with skeptics, though, because I understand that they probably would not be fully appreciated. But, I have written about them here, so mock away. Knock yourself out.

42

Wow. Wonderfully put. Much better than what I said.

I obviously missed this post because I took a lot of time fighting the overworked hampster and editing my previous post. (And then I did stop to vacuum the entire living room too - that probably delayed things too!)

43

The trouble is, such statements as “…who are we to disabuse her of her simple faith?” are usually made by those who already hold that faith. Would you be so nonchalant about people converting away from your religion for such a simplistic reason? How secure is your belief in the first place if the simple act of finally finding a book persuades you to change religions?

44

Huh? What does that have to do with the OP? If someone is easily swayed away (or towards) a particular belief system, that’s how it is for them.

So what’s your point? Please clarify. Why should anyone care if someone else has a “simple faith”. How’s it hurting you?

45

And how sound is one’s faith when simply finding a book is a pivotal sign of divine intervention?

46

I’m sick of the idea that belief without evidence deserves respect.

47

What I want to know is, did she ever figure out that God hid it from her in the first place?

48

The danger of a “simple faith” is that sometimes the person who is so easily swayed gets very upset when others are not so easily swayed. Because their faith is built on coincidence, happenstance or luck, simple coincidence, happenstance or luck might be all it takes to sway them to a position on the other end of the scale. BTW, declaring that the simple act of finding an object in the only place left in a room you have yet to check to be a “miracle” just because you pray demeans the meaning of the word, don’t you think?

49

Hey - you don’t owe anything or anyone respect. No one can make you feel anything you don’t want to feel. However, open contempt and derision aren’t usually appreciated, especially when it comes to someone else’s personal beliefs.

Ah, I see. “Because their faith is built on coincidence, happenstance or luck”? Where do you draw the line? When is it OK and “not dangerous” for a person of faith to believe that they’ve witnessed God’s intervention? How big of a miracle does it have to be? And do you consider yourself a qualified judge to determine which “miracles” are OK to believe in, and which are just “coincidence, happenstance or luck”?

And, “it MIGHT be all it takes”? So you don’t know what they are going to do in the future, but they MIGHT do something you don’t like? What? Is this like the Thought Police? They are dangerous because they are thinking things and feeling things, and you (in your infinite wisdom) have decided that they MIGHT do some other (dangerous) thing in the future? Golly.

When they DO something dangerous or damaging, we should all be over them. But when it’s all a bunch of “well, they might…” Yeah. Whatever. Every single solitary person has the potential to “maybe do this or that ‘dangerous’ thing…” So what do you think we all should do? Constantly monitor or harrangue each other, because we are all ticking time bombs? Because we might do something in the future?

By whose standards? Who gets to decide that it is “demeaned”? Frankly, I find it difficult to believe that you are actually concerned or bothered at all that the concept of prayer might possibily be “demeaned”.

50

I was talking about the concept of “miracles”.
If the mere finding of a book can be declared a miracle, than the word has no meaning what so ever.

51

And you get to decide this because…? I mean, was this girl going to appeal to the Pope and ask that this Miracle of the Lost Bible at Bible Camp be declared an official miracle? Or was she a bit young and enthusiastic, and was able to get thrilled by some of the simpler things? Is this so terribly dangerous?

I agree, she was a bit immature. If I were in her place, I probably would have been a bit more taciturn when it came to sharing my personal, everyday “miracles”.

The thing is, many people of faith choose to see God’s interaction in every little nice thing that happens to them. They don’t consider them miracles on the level of walking on water, but they choose to believe that God has helped them in this or that - the green light in traffic, the washing machine worked, the letter they were waiting for came in the mail. They are very thrilled and grateful for every nice little thing that happens to them. It makes them happy to have that optimistic attitude. Is there something “dangerous” about such an attitude?

52

Dangerous? Usually not.
Silly? Usually.
Would you mind giving us a nice standard definition of “miracle” so that this conversation can proceed on a level playing field?

53

There’s really nothing to be gained by mocking the girl’s faith, and I don’t see that the OP was trying to. The issue isn’t her faith, it’s her stupidity.

It’s a pretty common human experience to misplace something and then not be able to find it readily. It’s also pretty common to eventually find it–in a place that wasn’t looked at before. To think that the only explanation is God’s direct intervention demonstrates an almost scary ignorance of ordinary daily life. To expect the telling of this tale to convince an atheist that God indeed exists raises naivete to new levels.

Now, I’m making the assumption here that the lady in question is a teenager or older. I’m not kidding when I say that there are eight-year old kids at our church that have a deeper understanding of God than this story portrays.

If her big gun for witnessing is a story where she prayed for something to happen and it happened, and it’s something that routinely happens to people every day without their praying about it, she’s got a whole lot to learn.

54

There are all sorts of levels of miracles. Some are personal, some are BIG. There are plenty of “unexplained miracles” (I occasionally hear about them on the news - usually they are medical in nature). Depending on an individual’s faith (or lack thereof) these “unexplained” events will be interpreted as “unexplained”, or as “miracles of God”. Then there are the classic miracles related in the Bible, like walking on water, water into wine, loaves and fishes, etc. Once again, these things will be believed, or doubted, depending on each individual’s personal feelings and beliefs.

Then there are the “personal” ones, as described in the OP. The girl felt that this “coincidence” was more than a coincidence. That’s her personal opinion, her personal decision, and it’s her life. Her folly was in trying to tell this story to someone who had just about zero chance of ever accepting or believing it as anything other than coincidence.

I might ask, what do you hope to accomplish by requesting a definition of “miracle”? I take it that ALL events (unexplained or coincidence) are never going to be considered miracles by you. I might ask you, is there any time when a belief in a miracle is not “silly” (at the very least) in your eyes? Or are you trying to say that you indeed would not find the belief in certain “miracles” (as long as you understand the definition of “miracle”) to be a silly thing?

No… not necessarily. If a person is one of these very optimistic types who sees God’s hand in every good little thing that happens (as perky and irritating as some might find that :wink: ) then this episode would simply be one more nice thing that God helped them with that day. It would be consistent for them to be totally thrilled about finding the lost thing, and to also credit God for His help in the matter.

No argument there!

55

I have been witness to a miracle that has shown me the True Nature of God ™.

Once, when I was in fourth grade, I had a report to write on Ponce de Leon. Stupidly, I procrastinated until the night before. At about 9 at night, I finally started. (This is normal for me now, but keep in mind that this is pretty late for a 9-year-old to be starting a project.) Anyway, I realized that there was no way that I could finish my report on time. And then I saw a snowflake fall out of the sky.

A single flake.

At that point, I commenced praying as hard as possible for a snow day the next day. And lo and behold, it happened.

This convinced me of this Cosmic Truth ™:

God is a lazy bugger and rewards the lazy and incompetent.

Being raised Lutheran, I immediately began looking for evidence of this in the Bible. And I realized, it’s everywhere. I mean, look at Genesis. God rests on the seventh day. I mean, the guy is all-powerful, and He still has the nerve to knock off for a day?

And then I looked at the life of Jesus. This guy was raised in the respectable trade of carpentry. And then He goes and starts saying He’s the “Son of God” so He can bum lodging off of his followers and associate with loose women and stuff. And how about the whole “consider the lilies” thing? Obviously, one of the Jeez-Dawg’s major points that was lost on his followers was that work is totally unnecessary.

I later realized that this theme is evident in many other religions as well. Taoism, for example, preaches the idea of action through inaction. The Church of the SubGenius is perhaps the most blatant of all in its quest for “Slack.” I have realized that all major religions have this idea of riding the wave of chance and getting “something for nothing.” Perhaps the reason is that the major motivation in becoming a prophet is the lure of groupies and tax-free income without the necessity of business, musical, or artistic talent. Thus, religion provides a forum for slackers to spread their agenda.

But personally, I know the Truth. God favors those of His own type: the lazy blokes who believe that the world owes them a living.

So yeah, I would say that my belief in the True Message of God ™ was brought on by a miracle. :smiley:

56

When an accident is prevented, or something else positive happens, by means that defy logic, or the laws of physics, or bend time or space.

**

Somebody MIGHT be led into thinking that the best way to serve their god was to hijack a plane and crash it into a building.

57

Ah. But - what if someone witnesses such an event, but no one else is around to confirm that they witnessed it? Are they ever given the benefit of the doubt? And is a person who claims to have witnessed a miracle (but no one else saw it) automatically, 100% of the time, “dangerous”? I mean, no one can prove what they saw, one way or the other.

And, what about people who believe in miracles that are hundreds or thousands of years old, before proper documentation could confirm them as valid miracles? If people choose to believe in such miracles (by accepting the credibility of the witnesses) are they automatically “dangerous” for believing in such miracles?

Uh huh…

So, how can you tell, just by someone’s personal faiths and beliefs, (not their actions) that they might do something dangerous? How far do you want to take this?

The people who hijacked a plane and crashed it into a building were affiliated with a group that vowed death to America, and already had a rich history of terrorism. There were plenty of actions to indicate that yes, indeed, they might be further dangerous acts.

How does this compare to someone who believes in miracles, (like “God helped me find my Bible”). Please provide the evidence that there is clear threat from such a person, based on their belief in personal miracles alone.

And, where do you draw the line? Who is “dangerous” and who isn’t, judging by their personal beliefs alone? Barring actual threats or veiled threats, how do you know that someone is a threat by what they think or believe? Lastly, what do you want done to the “dangerous” people? I mean, hadn’t they be put on some “watch list”? Because, you know, they think wrong thoughts (according to you) so they might do something…

58

A miracle is a sign from God. It’s something that makes you aware, when you see it, that God is working in your life. What makes it a miracle depends on your personal faith and relationship with God; one person’s miracle is another person’s random event. (Yes, Czarcasm, I know this is no help to you in giving you an objectively testable definition of “miracle”; I think my point, if i have one, is that such a definition is not possible.)

I don’t think a miracle is something that creates faith, rather something that affirms it. If you don’t believe in God, you don’t see His hand at work in the world. The person in the OP evidently sees God’s hand in the little things of life - nothing wrong with that, in my view. I’m no great fan of simple, unexamined faith, but there are undoubtedly people who don’t like my dry and over-intellectuallised version of Christianity either. A simple faith is not necessarily a weak or a naive one.

Incidentally, Rilchiam, with the greatest of respect, I think you’re wrong… it’s not those with a simple faith who fly airliners into buildings; you need a certain amount of rationalisation before you can commit atrocities in the name of goodness and mercy. It’s the logic-choppers and textual interpreters, like me, you need to worry about.

59

Have you not read any of my posts on religion? I’m a hardcore atheist.

I wouldn’t try to take away the faith of someone like that for the same reason I don’t stomp on butterflies.

I am confident that there are no supernatural entities of any kind, but if someone tries to live right, be kind to others, and become a better person because he or she is inspired by faith in God, then what would be accompished by trying to argue away their faith?

Well, I have to admit it seems somewhat simpleminded to me, too, but re-read the Pulp Fiction quote in my first post.

“Whether or not what we experienced was an According to Hoyle miracle is irrelevant. What is relevant is that I felt the touch of God. God got involved.”

60

Even if the book finding situation and your “near-death” experience were if fact miracles, guess what? Then God himself deserves mockery, if not actual derision. “Hmmmmmm, I’m an omnipotent being with infinite power, what should I do today? Should I use my endless power and love to prevent horrific tragedies like Sept 11? No, I’m gonna help some bint find a book and a drunk college shmoe. Don’t like it? Hey, ‘mysterious ways’ baby!!!”