It allll makes sense to me now!!
Some lazy twerp needed help finding her bible, so THATS why god didnt have time to help sick, dying starving people!!!
Ahhhhhhh I get it.
I envy people like the one in the OP I wish to god(pun intended) that I had a beleif system so strong that it prevented any possible logic from entering.
Ask your friend to pray for a winning lottery ticket next time.
Revtim, thumbs up. 
As for people and “blind faith”, it’s only my opinion and probably doesn’t mean anything to anyone, but I have a real problem with people blindly following ANYthing.
Look, Revtim, I don’t really give a crap what you believe, and whether or not you mock God or don’t accept any explanation on why there is suffering in the world. What I do give a crap about is that you don’t get mocked for your faith. The post by kellibelli is now yet another of the multiple examples in this thread alone where a person’s belief is being mocked by saying it prevents “any possible logic from entering.”
The sheer arrogance and condensation inherent in comments like that are a reflection of the intolerance of small minds. Just fucking get over yourselves.
And Missy2U, I agree that we should be very wary of “blind faith.” However, that’s not what the girl in the OP said. And it is not what yousemitebabe said. And it’s not what I said.
Swampbear, I don’t know how to break this to you easily, but…
He is! 
Czarcasm, a fair criticism. But, taking it over to GD, how would you define “miracle” as a meaningful word (albeit for some, like “a living unicorn,” a term without an objective referent)?
I’m wondering if a lot of what your problem with “Christians seeing miracles growing on trees” is, is simply a semantic problem. (We could always invite TheRyan in to parse our terminology!;))
A quick question:
Which beliefs are acceptable for questioning such that we don’t give the appearance of “arrogance and condensation (sic)?”
I, for one, don’t think that all beliefs are created equal or deserve equal respect - and if your (generic “your”) belief invokes the supernatural, when a natural explanation suffices quite nicely, I’m bound to point it out. So sue me.
If the girl thinks God beamed her Bible to her PJ drawer, more power to her. If she decides to tell me about about it, is it a disservice to perhaps encourage her to be a little more rational? I don’t think so. YMMV.
That said, there are kind ways to point this out - and not so kind ways.
Well put. Thank you.
Yeesh, what a bunch of bitter people.
Go ahead, everyone, pat yourselves on the back. You are so clever, and so logical. The rest of us (who are stupid and illogical enough to have a religious faith) are just ignorant rubes compared to you. You’ve cornered the market on intelligence and logic. :rolleyes:
You know, it’s never occurred to me to mock or belittle someone else’s personal beliefs (or lack thereof) in such a way. But if it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling to do it, knock yourselves out.
While I appreciate that you don’t feel beliefs should be mocked, and I have no doubt that your feelings are commendably based on politeness and respect, I have to disagree.
I think that no belief should be held sacrosanct, faith or not, or else it will become something That May Not Be Questioned, and there will be no chance of correction if wrong.
Revtim, I will have to agree with you again - while saying Hamlet, I understand your point and agree that that ISN’T what you said, but have to agree with Revtim - I don’t think ANYTHING should be held sacrosanct.
Because if it is, where do our own personal beliefs fit in? You can’t have it both ways - either we all are free to believe what we want, which in my opinion seems kinda cool - simplistic maybe, but cool - or, is it somehow now acceptable that we are force fed glurge in an effort to find “God”?
I don’t recall, after the years I spent in parochial school, that God said I had to toe his party line. And I’d love for someone to tell me where it says I have to listen to it. And it seems to me that Jesus, at least what I read of him from the Bible, was pretty cool - and didn’t shove ANYthing down anyone’s throat. And that includes “I’m the Son of God, I walked on water, blah blah fishes, loaves, wine, etc. ad nauseum.”
And it certainly didn’t say he played “Where’s Waldo” with a bible.
And yet, mocking personal beliefs is something you’ve done quite a bit of already in this thread.
Examples:
These are all in response to what other people have posted, i.e., their “personal beliefs” (unless you think they are lying in their posts, or being deliberately misleading). Or does “personal beliefs” refer only to religious beliefs? If so, isn’t it just special pleading to say that religious beliefs shouldn’t be mocked, but other beliefs can be?
I can think of better things to waste time praying for than a lost book.
I should tell my Bible school teacher/curtains/Vietnamese orphans anecdote. But I’ve told it before, and I don’t know if anyone’s ever paying attention.
Uh…Who am I “mocking”? What beliefs am I “mocking”? The “belief” that it’s OK to be “secretly laughing behind other people’s backs” and to be “damned smart and clever and judgmental”? The belief that it is OK to be condescending, and somewhat insulting? I didn’t realize that was a unique belief system. I thought this was more like an obnoxious attitude.
Uh - specifically, what beliefs have I “mocked”? I am asking a question, and I am saying that I find it difficult to believe that a person who does not believe in the efficacy of prayer is worried about the concept of prayer being “demeaned”. And this is “mocking” a person’s belief system? How? If the person I asked felt “mocked” by my question (if indeed they are deeply concerned because the concept of prayer might be demeaned) I’m sure they are perfectly capable of correcting me of any misconceptions or assumptions I have made.
Once again, I am not following you. Whose belief system am I “mocking” here? Who am I insulting? Am I asking about who gets to decide what a “miracle” really is. Who is being “mocked”, pray tell? The girl in the OP? I doubt that I am mocking the girl, since my scenario (The Miracle of the Lost Bible) is obviously facetous and absurd. Am I mocking the Pope? What’s your point here?
Uh…what? Is this “mocking” someone’s seriously held personal beliefs, or is this responding to some rather (in my opinion) bitter behavior and attitude? There is a difference between “beliefs” and behaviors and attitudes, you know. I can question their attitudes and behavior, without mocking their deeply held personal beliefs. And, there’s a difference between questioning and responding to (IMO) “bitter” behavior, and yet not be mocking their seriously held beliefs. Mocking and responding in irritation are two different things.
Ah. So a smug and condescending attitude is a “personal belief”. That’s a new one.
Who are you to decide what’s a “unique belief system”? (And what’s the importance of “unique” and “system”, anyway? Not attempting to change the subject here are we?) The simple fact is that you were mocking personal beliefs. I was merely pointing this out.
Either mocking beliefs is sometimes ok, or it is never ok. I say it’s sometimes ok. In other words, the blanket statement, “You can never justifiably mock a personal belief” should be considered incorrect. That was and is my point.
Belief “system”? I don’t know. But it certainly mocks a belief. You are mocking the belief of someone who does not believe in the efficacy of prayer that prayer might be demeaned.
Once again you mention “belief system”, whereas before you talked about “personal beliefs”. Are the two interchangable? Does one have protected status from mockery but the other not?
You are mocking somebody’s opinion, which is a form of belief. Of course, now you bring in “seriously held” and “deeply held”. Should deeply or seriously held beliefs be protected from mockery but not other beliefs?
Not all of what you were responding to was smug or condescending or even attitude. Much of it was merely an expressed belief, one which you apparantly find distasteful.
For example:
You are obviously mocking a belief about the meaning of a word. Why do you have to attack someone’s belief like that? Why can’t you just say “That’s nice?” and stop “thinking any more about it”?
Like I said, my point is just that some “personal beliefs” are OK to mock. Indeed, I think some beliefs deserve a good mocking (for an off topic example, the belief “race X is superior to race Y” deserves a good mocking, no matter how deeply held it is).
There’s a difference between “mock” and “question”. There’s a difference between “mock” and “annoyed”, “irritated”, “disagree”. And there is a difference between “belief” and “attitude”.
There’s a difference between “doubt”, “question” and “mock”.
How about this, then.
I question the judgement of someone whose belief system is so shallow that the finding of a book can change or influence it.
I doubt that such a person has gone through the religious and philosophical thinking one should go through before making such a profound change in belief.
I think that to reduce the meaning of the word “miracle” so that it can mean anything mocks those who truly believe they have experienced something so rare and wondrous that it can only be refered to as a “miracle”.
Water going up a waterfall=miracle.
Woman has missing leg grow back=miracle.
The Chicago Cubs winning the World Series=miracle.
Person finally finding book=everyday occurance.
There. I’ve dared to state what is and is not a miracle.
Czarcasm: :::applause:::
I question the judgment of a person who thinks that telling an atheist about finding a lost book will “prove” anything, yes.
I don’t question the judgment of someone who is happy to see “personal miracles” in everyday nice things. As long as they are clear that there is a distinction between a “personal miracle” and someone walking on water, or the Cubs winning the World Series.
Doubt away. Personally, I’d have to get to know the person better before I’d doubt that. I’d doubt their wisdom and maturity, because they actually were naive enough to think that ther lost book tale would be effective in persuading an atheist of anything, though.
Even when pains are taken to explain the difference between “personal miracle” and “miracle”? (Like I have already done.) OK, fine.
Why did you even ask me for my definition of a miracle, then? If you had your own definition already formed? Do you understand that (for many Christians) there is a distinction between “personal miracle” and “miracle”?
Revtim and Missy. Nobody is asking you to hold Christian XXX’s beliefs sacrosanct. I’m just sick and tired of certain posters immediately demeaning any expression of faith on the boards. Her statements have been called “inane,” “crap,” and “idiocy.”
Great question and statement, super head. The way I look at it, there is a difference between beliefs and faith, because faith, by it’s very definition, is unprovable. Both beliefs and faiths can be questioned. If that was what the OP, and the other posters did, fine. But in this thread, her faith has been derided and mocked. I generally consider things like the level of sincerity, how deeply held it is, how important to a person it is, how it affects a person, what it deals with and (of course) how reasonable it is, when discussing faith. If Jack Batty had a sincere, deeply held, inherent belief that his left testicle is God, good for him. I hope he remains happy in his faith, and that it serves him well. I’d also recommend he wear a cup full-time.
BlackKnight. If you can’t see the difference between mocking somebody’s faith and saying mocking somebody’s faith is wrong, then there really is no point of discussion. There is a huge difference between “I believe in God.” and “I believe you’re a fucking idiot for believing in God.” I’d stand up just as strongly if a Christian posted a rant saying this atheist is an idiot for his disbelief in the efficacy of prayer.
I’m not a Christian. I don’t think I’ve had a miracle in my life (except for my beautiful daughter). However, I think people should be treated with respect. In addition, regardless of the semantic game-playing over a definition of miracle, and the “me too” ass kissing, I don’t see anywhere in the OP saying that this girl’s faith is completely based on this one event in her life. It is just one more example of how, in this thread, and quite often on these boards, the default reaction when dealing with an issue of faith, is to automatically assume the person holding that faith is an idiot, has not thought his/her faith through. That, and the mocking of someone’s faith, is what I am decrying.
[sub]Note to self - Condensation is the process by which a gas or vapor changes to a liquid. Not quite the same as condescending[/sub]
Hamlet, you put it far better than I ever could.
That’s it. We don’t always have to respect the substance of the beliefs (Jack Batty’s left testicle is God - no - I don’t think I’ll embrace that belief myself). But, if it makes Jack happy, I respect Jack, and I will try to treat Jack with respect, when I talk to him about him and his Divine Testicle.