Why is it that only Northern Europeans have been programmed to make themselves into a minority?

[Westrogothia]

@Great_Antibob

I understood your point. You did not understand ours.

Our point is NOT that Swedes are greatly mixed. Our point is that some mixing exists (and I’d still lay money - even short my own odds - that most Swedes share Charlemagne as a common ancestor).

Further, the original point was about the genetic differences between Finns and Swedes. While you can argue about ancestry all day, the genetics show the two populations are, indeed, closely related.

I understood your point. I was just clarifying my response that got garbled in translation.

[RaleighRally]

@Steken

Well, I grew up in Sweden and went through school there, and yet, for the life of me I just can’t seem to recall a single programming session of the kind you describe here.

Learning to “hate” the Northern European “heritage”? Well, um, no, that just wasn’t on the curriculum.

Quite the opposite, actually.

Now, I don’t know exactly what you mean by “heritage,” but with your permission I’ll have a quick look at some of the possibilities, just off the top of my head, and tick 'em off one by one:

Pre-Christian Scandinavian religion, Nordic mythology, Odinism, that whole thing? Yep, learned about it in school. We even put on a school play about that one time Thor’s hammer is stolen by an evil giant, and alpha-male Thor has to team up with that nasty li’l nerd Loki to get it back. Hilarity ensues. (I got the role as the evil giant, Trym, and hotdamn, I loved every single motherlovin’ minute of it. Best mismatched buddy comedy ever.)

Celebrating traditional Swedish holidays? Oh, hell yeah – dancin’ round the pole at Midsummer like a crazy person, the whole Saint Lucia thing, etc., etc. (Funny story – me and the two, three other swarthy, foreign kids in class were given the roles of the “gingerbread men”! waits for laughs that never come … OK, I guess you kinda had to be there. And, uh, be more or less Swedish, to catch the reference. Ahem. Movin’ on.)

Learning to love traditional Swedish music, art, literature? Oh yeah, big time – for one thing, us kids were taught plenty of songs by all the great old Swedish balladeers, from Bellman to Taube and just about everybody in between. I still remember some of them tunes. Get me drunk sometime and I just might put on a show for ya. (Nakedness optional.) And of course we read Strindberg and all that good stuff. And partied down to Ace Of Base in the evenings, if that counts.

And as for German culture… Well holy balls us kids were taught to just love us some fine, fine German culture! Just loved the stuff! Couldn’t get enough!

Plenty of us, myself included, studied German (the language) in school, and so were introduced to Goethe, Novalis and all the rest of it. And even the kids who picked French (in those days, i.e. the 90’s, you were allowed a choice between either German or French, in addition to the compulsory English studies) were taught at least a little bit of it, German being considered completely awesome by everyone involved. Amongst other things, us kids were taught to sing this nice old German ditty which ended with the words “die Gedaaaaanken sind freeeeeei!” (I think the lyrics were by… Schiller, maybe? I can’t really remember.)

What else we got? Li’l things like concentration camps pre-dating WWII, and in fact having been invented by the Brits during one of the Boer Wars? Check. Learned that exact fact in school, for God’s sake, so it’s not like it was some kind of forbidden knowledge you had to whisper carefully about lest the PC Gestapo would overhear you and whisk you away to some GULAG-style re-education camp way up in the Laplandish wilderness.

(If I remember correctly, our teacher had been reading up on Peter Englund, who was a pretty popular historian in the 90’s and wrote about that whole thing in one of his books. I guess them books must have slipped through the ZOG Censorship Program or whatever, because really, they were readily available and even considered bestsellers as far as history books are concerned.)

So, yeah, to bring my rather long-winded rant to a nice, short conclusion, I guess the OP-relevant point here is either

1. At least one kid miraculously managed to somehow get through the supposedly rabidly anti-European, anti-Germanic, anti-white brainwashing program known as the Swedish school system with nothing but warm, fluffy feelings for Sweden, Swedish culture, Germany, German culture, etc., etc.

or

2. RaleighRally is deluded and “svamlar i nattmössan.”

You have completely missed out the key issues of my OP.

Were you taught that Slavery was primarily an all white-affair?
Were you taught that Nazi-Germany is a natural result of white nationalism?
Were you taught to embrace mass immigration?
Were you taught that if you don’t like immigration, you are a racist/xenophobe?

I would also like to ask Spectre, towndebb and John Mace: Did you learn about the British Concentration Camps in Primary School or High School?

[Westrogothia]

@Great_Antibob

Further, the original point was about the genetic differences between Finns and Swedes. While you can argue about ancestry all day, the genetics show the two populations are, indeed, closely related.

Do you have a cite for this? I’m trying to find one but:

Genetic history of Europe

“four major ‘outliers’- Basques, Lapps, Finns and Icelanders; a result he attributed to their relative isolation”

“Finland, showing the greatest distance to the rest of Europeans.”

And scrolling down to the table, sure the diffrence between swedes and finns are the smallest one in the row containing the finns but its still distinctively larger than say the swedish-german one.

[RaleighRally]

@tomndebb

Significant non-Scandinavian immigration to Sweden has been going on for less than a generation. Fewer than 10% of the population (including all immigrants) are not Scandinavian and most of the Yugoslavs, Greeks, and Turks have only recently arrived. Your claim that a “flood” of “hords” [sic] of others have reduced the apparent difference between the blondes of Sweden and elsewhere is nonsense as ~91% of the population remains Scandinavian and should carry all the Scandinavian ethnic features. At this point, you have moved yourself off the “benefit of the doubt” category (as one more loony ethnicist) into the category of “probable troll.”

If you continue in this vein, we will probably begin reviewing your posting privileges.

[ /Moderating ]

The Greeks, Yugoslavs and Turks immigrated already in the 50s. Many of them had children with Swedish women. Today there are about 2 million people with an immigrant background in Sweden. Swedes of today are just not as blonde as they used to be. That is a fact. But I give you my Scandinavian word to never again speak about “hordes from the…”

[Acsenray]

I don’t understand how the British Boer concentration camps are so important to this discussion. The British are Northern Europeans, aren’t they?

[RaleighRally]

@DrFidelius

Wait. Refugees?
I need a line judge call - how far was that goalpost just moved?

In Sweden if you are a labour migrant, you must have your job ready before you enter the country. So I was kind of taking it for granted that we were talking “refugees”.

[Westrogothia]

@RaleighRally

The Greeks, Yugoslavs and Turks immigrated already in the 50s. Many of them had children with Swedish women. Today there are about 2 million people with an immigrant background in Sweden. Swedes of today are just not as blonde as they used to be. That is a fact. But I give you my Scandinavian word to never again speak about “hordes from the…”

I’m really sorry to have to tell you but sweden was never that blond.

Heres a picture from 1950’s gothenburg. (you can see the skansen lejonet in the background)

[RaleighRally]

@Great_Antibob

Further, the original point was about the genetic differences between Finns and Swedes. While you can argue about ancestry all day, the genetics show the two populations are, indeed, closely related.

That is just not true Sherwood. Check this image: Ideas Are Immortal - Big Think

[orcenio]

@RaleighRally

Thanks orcenio. Another thing I might add is the obsession with the Nazi-concentration camps. Northern European descendants are never taught in school that these camps origin from the Brits, in their war against civilians in the Boer-War. Do not click this link if you are sensitive: File:LizzieVanZyl.jpg - Wikipedia
Over 26,000 women and children were to perish in these British concentration camps.

Another fact that is always forgotten is that many more Black South Africans then Afrikaners were interned in these concentration camps; their camp numbers (and deaths) are frequently left out of the tally.
[

The Anglo-Boer War has long been notorious as the conflict which saw the birth of the concentration camp.
Tens of thousands of Afrikaners were herded into camps by the British.
More than 20,000 Afrikaners, mainly children, subsequently died from disease.
The Dry Harts cemetery contains hundreds of graves, all dating from 1901 and 1902. But the names on the gravestones belong not to Afrikaners, but to black Africans.
These stones are the evidence of a forgotten British crime.

](BBC News | AFRICA | Forgotten victims of the Boer War)[

Eventually, there were a total of 45 tented camps built for Boer internees and 64 for black Africans. Of the 28,000 Boer men captured as prisoners of war, 25,630 were sent overseas. The vast majority of Boers remaining in the local camps were women and children. Over 26,000 women and children were to perish in these concentration camps.

](Second Boer War - Wikipedia)[

Half of the recorded Black deaths occurred in the three months between November and January 1901 - 2831 deaths were recorded in December 1901. Some 81% of the deaths were children. Officially 14154 deaths were recorded but as the records of the camps are unsatisfactory the number could be as high as 20000.

](http://www.anglo-boer.co.za/concentration-camps/black-camps.php)

[Bridget_Burke]

@Acsenray

I don’t understand how the British Boer concentration camps are so important to this discussion. The British are Northern Europeans, aren’t they?

As were the Boers. I really doubt that shameful little episode is part of the Swedish curriculum. In fact, I wonder what the Swedes teach about the later war–when concentration camps spawned labor camps & extermination camps. While Sweden remained neutral.

In Texas, we didn’t learn much about The Boer War. (Ask me about The Alamo!) But most of us learned to read & some of us even kept learning after 12th grade.

ETA: Orcenio pointed out that many more victims of the First Concentration Camps were black. A fact I’m sure RR would applaud!

[BrainGlutton]

@Bridget_Burke

In Texas, we didn’t learn much about The Boer War. (Ask me about The Alamo!)

How much do you remember?

[RaleighRally]

@amanset

Even the south of Sweden is very sparsely populated. I’m sorry mate, but there’s a metric arseload of space here.

So you want them to become farmers like the Swedes in Minnesota? Bad news for you: There is no fertile land left in Sweden! Try to understand that you can not compare today’s immigration with the migration to America in the 19th century.

[amanset]

@RaleighRally

So you want them to become farmers like the Swedes in Minnesota? Bad news for you: There is no fertile land left in Sweden! Try to understand that you can not compare today’s immigration with the migration to America in the 19th century.

Yes you are right. There are nothing but farmers currently in southern Sweden, so anyone going to live there would have no option but to be a farmer.

[RaleighRally]

@Bridget_Burke

ETA: Orcenio pointed out that many more victims of the First Concentration Camps were black. A fact I’m sure RR would applaud!

Just because I do not like to become a minority in my own country, you presume that I like Blacks to die… You must be really sick. I hope the moderators will ban you on the spot or at least give you a warning.:mad:

[Westrogothia]

@RaleighRally

So you want them to become farmers like the Swedes in Minnesota? Bad news for you: There is no fertile land left in Sweden! Try to understand that you can not compare today’s immigration with the migration to America in the 19th century.

There isn’t? were using 2.7M hectares of areable land atm, in the 40s we were using 4.6.
Thats a lot of land thats not beeing used for growing food (I suspect a lot of it has been turned into urban areas but hardly all of it)

and theres 23M hectares of forest. I’m sure some of it could be made into areable land.

[Steken]

@RaleighRally

You have completely missed out the key issues of my OP.

Were you taught that Slavery was primarily an all white-affair?

No.

I was taught that slavery had been around for a long, long time, and that at different times in history different groups had held other groups captive as slaves. Biblical times? The Jews slaving away under the Egyptians. America ca. 1850? Black people slaving away under white people. Present-day? Black people slaving away under other black people. (Oversimplified? Yes, of course – I’m talking early childhood here.)

@RaleighRally

Were you taught that Nazi-Germany is a natural result of white nationalism?

If you meant to say white supremacism, I was certainly taught that it was a pretty big deal in Hitler’s Germany and indeed an integral part of the National Socialist ideology. Don’t know about Nazi Germany being its “natural result”, though… I can’t recall my teachers ever framing it like that.

Later on I learned about sky-rocketing inflation and unemployment during the Weimar Republic, though, and assumed that must have played a big role in Hitler’s rise to power, too. Can’t remember if I picked that up in school, or during my own reading. Oh well.

@RaleighRally

Were you taught to embrace mass immigration?

Don’t know about “mass” immigration, but I was definitely taught that immigration was a pretty awesome thing.

After all, it gave Sweden that smokin’ hot Kurdish girl who did all the sexy dancing in the E-Type music videos. Ah, yes. Even after all these years, I sure wouldn’t mind “embracing” her “mass immigration.”

In all seriousness, though, I was more or less taught that immigration was great and would benefit Sweden in many different ways.

@RaleighRally

Were you taught that if you don’t like immigration, you are a racist/xenophobe?

Pretty much, yes, or at least that if you don’t like immigrants, no matter who they are or how they live their lives, you are indeed a racist/xenophobe.

[Dissonance]

@Acsenray

I don’t understand how the British Boer concentration camps are so important to this discussion. The British are Northern Europeans, aren’t they?

RR’s history guru Pat Buchanan has a hard-on against the British for some reason. According to Pat, the British started WW2, they made the Holocaust happen, and well even if they didn’t they invented concentration camps, so who are we to point fingers at the poor Germans?

[An_Gadai]

@BrainGlutton

What were they?

A Lascar was a sailor or militiaman from South Asia or other countries east of the Cape of Good Hope, employed on European ships from the 16th century until the beginning of the 20th century.

From: Lascar - Wikipedia

As far as I know, despite the legends, Spanish Armada survivors left no significant genetic legacy on these islands.

[RaleighRally]

@Great_Antibob

(4) What does the media have to do with it at all?

People tend to perceive the World through the media.:rolleyes:

@Great_Antibob

As previous posts have illustrated, Japan and South Korea, at least, have had bad experiences with colonizing influences (those self-same “Northern” Europeans at work, actually).

America and Australia have also had experiences with colonizing influences (those self-same “Northern” Europeans at work, actually). But that doesn’t stop them from changing their ethnic makeup by mass immigration.

@Great_Antibob

And Israel is hardly ethnically homogenous. Far from it, actually. It’s not even culturally homogenous. Your sources on this are not satisfactory.

Non-Jews can not easily migrate to Israel. They even try to get rid of non-Jews just to preserve their “Jewish identity”:

MK Danny Danon (Likud) asked Australian MP Michael Danby on Wednesday to propose, in parliament in Canberra, sending African migrants from Israel to Australia. The arrival of thousands of Muslim infiltrators to Israeli territory is a clear threat to the state’s Jewish identity,” Danon told The Jerusalem Post.
“The refugees’ place is not among us, and the initiative to transfer them to Australia is the right and just solution.

Israeli politics and world diplomacy | The Jerusalem Post

Once again Sherwood, your ignorance is hurting your argument.

[Great_Antibob]

@RaleighRally

That is just not true Sherwood. Check this image: Ideas Are Immortal - Big Think

I hope you notice that the same image shows that the Poles and Czechs (apparently NOT among the “Northern” Europeans in your typography) are more closely related to the Swedes than the English and southern Germans.

Is that really what you want to claim? If so, you yourself have presented evidence contrary to your previous assertions.

As for Finns/Swedes, I’m started to look through sources. I admit it’s possible I was thinking of the native Lapp (Sami?) population.

Even so, if the Finns are the genetically isolated ones, that means they’re the isolated ones and the Swedes have seen more mixing with the general European population.

Either way, it still puts a bit of a hole in the “Sweden as genetically isolated” theory.