Why is it the USA's responsiblity in MidEast?

This is NOT a great debate question. I am asking why it is percieved that the USA has some sort of responsiblity to find a solution to the never ending war in the middle east?

This quote is off of an article on MSNBC about how Israel is rejecting the idea of a tempory palestinian state until a peace agreement can be made.

Why does Erekat think that Bush should focus on anything? Shouldn’t HE and HIS PEOPLE be focusing on other angles? Angles other than killing and war? It seems to me that we are like a teacher trying to make the kids play nice during recess.

What is it about this clusterfuck of a wasteland that requires us to be mediators? Is there some sort of agreement that USA will arbitrate all disputes over there? Seems like we have our hands in so many pots over there that we are gonna get them both chopped off if we are not careful. It is worse than Mad Fucking Max over there.

Since the US is Israel’s major backer, financially and militarily, is it any wonder that the responsibility falls in our laps?

Frankly, I’m in favor of withdrawing all foreign aid from everyone, except in extreme humanitarian cases.

Let Israel stand or fall on its own.

Well, there are a few different arguments you could play with:

1.) As the sole remaining superpower and at least a supposed force for good, the United States has a moral responsibility to weigh in and attempt to resolve international crises in as productive a manner as possible. You can argue against this justification from just about every direction and political orientation, from the extreme left to the extreme right and most points in between, but it is an argument made by some.

1a) As Israel is a fellow democracy in a region largely bereft of such governments, it is even more morally incumbent upon the U.S. to try to mediate in this dispute and attempt through this to further promote democracy in the region.

2.) Israel occupies an important position as the most significant strategic ally in a very sensitive corner of the world and in terms of realpolitik it is in the best interest of the U.S. to attempt to maintain its stability. This necessitates an intervention in the Palestinian crisis, because that issue is immutably tied to the question of Israeli stability.

2a) See 1a above but from a political self-interest rather than moral stance.

3.) The United States has a significant cultural interest because of the uniquely strong ties between Israel/Palestine and segments of the U.S. population, whether they be Jewish or Palestinian or even certain Christians with a strong emotional tie to the Holy Land. For the U.S. to simply turn its back on this affair would be a slap in the face that constituency. You can look at this as either moral or self-interest or both, however you prefer.

So there are reasons for the U.S. to involve themselves. Whether you think they are good ones or not is entirely up to you to decide :).

  • Tamerlane

Hmmm… Good points. Makes me think. Still think we should but out but oyu raise some valid points I had never considered.

BTW, HOLY SHITTY SHIT MY TITLE GOT BUTCHERED!!

It was supposed to be “Are Brittany Spears Tits Real?”
Dunno where this shit about the middle east came from. :wink:

It is to the mutual best interest of all parties concerned for the US to try to stableize the situation.

  1. Peace is more economically viable than war.
    Israel is a modern, mostly capitalistic democracy. They are a good trading partner. Having suicide bombers destroy consumer confidence, thereby fucking up the economy, is bad for us and them. The Palestinians have the potential to also become a modern democracy. There are Israeli Arabs who live and work alongside Israeli Jews peacefully and are represented in the government.

  2. Democracy is good.
    Democracies are mostly peaceful. There has never been an all-out war between two modern democracies. It behooves the US to have a democratic Islamic state (e.g. a Palestinian state) as an ally. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, et al are oppressive theocratic regimes that are annoying to be friends with.

  3. The US is one of the few countries with the economic, military and diplomatic power to actually make stuff happen. When you have the means to effect a change for the better, I think you are morally compelled to take action.

Whoa now. That depends on what you mean by a “modern democracy”, and/or what you mean by “all-out war”. But there are plenty of examples:

Ethiopia - Eritrea
UK - Argentina (Falklands, although it could be stressed that Argentina was not a “modern democracy” at the time)
The Cyprus conflict between Turkey and Greece (although one could say it’s not an all-out war)

Anyway, it’s a thin line, and it doesn’t deserve that generalisation, IMHO.

Good post, otherwise. :slight_smile:

OK, good point Coldfire.

I don’t consider Argentina to be a Democracy at the time of the Falklands war.

I don’t consider Cyprus to be a “major” war – though I’ll concede it is probably a good counter-argument to mine.

I dunno anything about Ethiopia and Eritrea.

For an authoritative discussion of the question, see Is it true there has never been a war between two democracies?

Argentina a democracy at the time of Malvina’s? :slight_smile: JAJAJA. I wonder why Videla is in jail, speeding probably.

True, true. I should have been more clear. I meant to say it wasn’t two “banana republics” fighting each other, one of them was an “esteemed” (former) world power.

But you’re right, Videla was a thug with dictatorial characteristics.

Whoa Whoa Whoa. I thought Banana Republic was a clothing store.

What is a banana republic really? Never in my life heard the term used outside of clothing.

“A small country that is economically dependent on a single export commodity, such as bananas, and is typically governed by a dictator or the armed forces.”

– American Heritage Dictionary

Well, of course I was mainly refering to that second part. Argentina produces both bananas AND pineapples. :wink:

*The US is one of the few countries with the economic, military and diplomatic power to actually make stuff happen. *

I’ll take this as the core argument. Stupid question: Why can’t the European Union mediate? For that matter, why can’t Denmark or Sweden?

Economic power: Maybe the US can threaten to cutoff Israeli aid if the peace process doesn’t continue. Hm. That sounds unlikely.

Military: Maybe the US can bomb both countries if the peace process doesn’t continue. Ditto.

Diplomatic: I understand that Denmark, Sweden and Lichtenstein also employ diplomats.

Put in another way, why can’t the Netherlands intervene, Coldy? (I’m not picking on you, I’m just trying to work out the answer to my naive question.)

Lack of EU cohesion on foreign policy and military action. Trying to get that many countries to agree on a course of action, and to get the necessary logisitical framework in place, would take forever.

I can think of a few reasons:
[list=1]
[li]Oil Lobbyists make sure they stay good friend$ with the politicians. As a result, we as a nation have done a very poor job of alternative fuel research, and we still need the oil they produce.[/li][li]Pat Robertson and his Christian Coalition have a large say in what the Republican-controlled White House can do. And you should know how they feel on the matter[/li][li]And, as my own personal reason, I’m sick of seeing all the dead children on my television every night. If left to their own devices, I think it is a no-win situation. Although I’m not sure if it isn’t that way even with US intervention.[/li][/list=1]

The EU has threatened trade sanctions at least a few times. Perhaps one day they will put them into effect, who knows? I’d think it would certainly have an impact.

Why can’t the Netherlands intervene?
As a matter of fact, in a way we do. Of course we don’t send all of our F 16’s over (which would probably be good for a laugh, seeing as they aren’t that many :)), but in the diplomatic field I happen to think my country DOES matter. Bear in mind that we do hold a special relationship with Israel, for obvious reasons. On the other hand, we’re a country that’s very tolerant towards all religions, so “we” are not unsympathetic towards the Palestinian cause either. This can lead to some uneasy contradictions. In 1997, then Dutch foreign affairs minister Hans van Mierlo was the first overseas official to visit Arafat in the Orient House. A few EU members were not amused, and the US sure as hell wasn’t. I guess there are not a lot of countries that can honestly claim they’re impartial in this matter - I’m not even sure if my country is one of them.

Why doesn’t the EU intervene with military force?
Not to sound like a prick, but the majority of western nations tend to prefer UN or NATO coordinated interventions over solo actions by one nation, big as their arsenal may be. I’m sure the UK or Germany could kick some serious ass if they wanted to - they just choose not to, at least, not completely soletary.

The diplomatic process is an interesting one. Why is it that the US seems to have the upper hand (for lack of a better term) in this, at least over the EU?

I guess a lot of it is demographics. Of the approximately 13 million Jews worldwide (versus 15 million right before WWII…), almost 6 million of them live in the United States (source). Assuming that most Jews are passionate and vocal about the Israel/Palestine matter (not a wild guess, I’d say), chances are protests will be most audible in the United States.
The Netherlands only has a Jewish population of 30,000 - again, for obvious reasons. The total Jewish population of the EU is about 1.1 million, going by the source above. This is not to say the EU or its inhabitants don’t care about the Israel/Palestine matter, but it only logical that it plays a more dominant role in the US.

Another reason is tradition: the US have been involved in peace negotiations regarding the I/P matter for a long time. As a result, the world -and certainly Israel- expects a continued involvement from the US. Failure to do so would harm diplomatic relations considerably.

I’m trying to picture Sweeden trying to mediate a dispute between India and Pakistan.

Somehow it involves an Ikea.

The EU… The EU isn’t going to be able to do anything important foreign policy wise for a few years at the earliest. Mainly, they lack the solid backing of the countries that form it. The head deligates of the EU (for lack of a better term) are directly controlled by the countries they are from, and as such lack the ability to exert pressure back to their nations. Which means, they can make all the condemnations they desire, but lack the military base which is required for what they say to have any effect.

That make sense? About the 9th time I’ve tried to explain it. (silly editing)

Yes they can do economic sanctions, because the EU countries gave the EU power over trade, but they have no ceeded any military/political power. So as such, the EU has roughly the political might of Microsoft. (not really)

But we’ll NEVER see economic sanctions. Why? Trade. Israel needs things, they have money. NATO nations can make a LOT of money selling Israel weapons. This all goes back to how the EU works (more or less). Since the EU deligates have no political power themselves (I believe all of them are appointed by their parent governments), they are directly controled by the elected officials. Which means standard big buisness practices come into play. Defense contractors wield a lot of power and so do other large industries. And lets face it, Israel is cut off from trading with its neighbors.

So what I’m getting at with the EU sanctions: They’ll probably never happen, too many of the EU memeber governments see very good reasons to contine to trade with Israel. And since the EU has SO little power over its member governments whatever the EU decides will be totally impotent.

<gah> This is if I’m understanding everything correctly.

Lets keep in mind that one of the key factors in being able to play a role in international affairs is being able to exert your will in matters. Malta doesn’t exactly have the money or military or any sort of leverage to MAKE people do what they say. You need to have a stick to make people do things sometime, people on the national level don’t listen to reason.

If we take major countries in the world individually you probably don’t have very many who can play negotiator in the mideast. A lot of europe has had a lot of influx of middle eastern peoples over the years, and some countries haven’t had a good history with the Jewish people either.

Look at what’s happening in France. Small Jewish population, lots of Middle Eastern people… I think there is some sort of balancing act going on… On one hand you have new voters who support the Palestinians and feel for their cause and on the other hand you have the population who remember the horrors of WWII. You side with one side, the other side condems you the other side and there is the subtle suggestion that the terrorism in Israel can be experienced at home.

So what do you do as a political leader?

Hell, look at germany. Look at the laws they have in place since WWII… Then look at some of their problems they’ve had with immigrants and what not…

Some of the smaller european nations, The Netherlands and Denmark don’t have the same problems as England, Germany and France do. But (no offense) they lack the ability to force their will on others. Economic embargos won’t work, and as Coldfire said, sending their F16’s wouldn’t work either.

So what are we left with?

The US has a long history in the region, supportig factions here trying to overthrow a government there. And we’ve been a long time supporter of Israel. Add those two things together and you’ve got everyone in the region screaming at us for a variety of reasons.
The US also has the political and economic ability to exert its will.

The only other major power that played in the middle east was Russia… Who no longer has the ability to. They can’t even exert pressure with arms sales they need money so badly.
As to the comments about Oil interests…

Someone brought up alternative energy sources.

Who is the MOST afraid of the US developing that?

Not the oil companies. I expect that most of them have been banking on the eventual shift from Oil to something else as an energy source. They’ve had years to prepair.

Try the Oil Producing countries.

What would happen to the Saudi government if suddenly the US shifted to using power cells and other forms of hydrogen to generate power and fuel our cars? They’d collapse.

Sure we’d need SOME oil for manufacturing purposes. But we’d probably be buying it at 5% of the current price.

There isn’t a legacy of democracy in that part of the world, there is a history of individuals taking the discontent of the population and using it for their own political gain. When the people of many middle eastern countries suddenly see their oil derived weath disappear, how do you think they’d respond?

Arrg I’m out of thoughts.

Dunno if what I said was right, or even made sense.

I’m trying to picture Sweeden trying to mediate a dispute between India and Pakistan.

Somehow it involves an Ikea.

The EU… The EU isn’t going to be able to do anything important foreign policy wise for a few years at the earliest. Mainly, they lack the solid backing of the countries that form it. The head deligates of the EU (for lack of a better term) are directly controlled by the countries they are from, and as such lack the ability to exert pressure back to their nations. Which means, they can make all the condemnations they desire, but lack the military base which is required for what they say to have any effect.

That make sense? About the 9th time I’ve tried to explain it. (silly editing)

Yes they can do economic sanctions, because the EU countries gave the EU power over trade, but they have no ceeded any military/political power. So as such, the EU has roughly the political might of Microsoft. (not really)

But we’ll NEVER see economic sanctions. Why? Trade. Israel needs things, they have money. NATO nations can make a LOT of money selling Israel weapons. This all goes back to how the EU works (more or less). Since the EU deligates have no political power themselves (I believe all of them are appointed by their parent governments), they are directly controled by the elected officials. Which means standard big buisness practices come into play. Defense contractors wield a lot of power and so do other large industries. And lets face it, Israel is cut off from trading with its neighbors.

So what I’m getting at with the EU sanctions: They’ll probably never happen, too many of the EU memeber governments see very good reasons to contine to trade with Israel. And since the EU has SO little power over its member governments whatever the EU decides will be totally impotent.

<gah> This is if I’m understanding everything correctly.

Lets keep in mind that one of the key factors in being able to play a role in international affairs is being able to exert your will in matters. Malta doesn’t exactly have the money or military or any sort of leverage to MAKE people do what they say. You need to have a stick to make people do things sometime, people on the national level don’t listen to reason.

If we take major countries in the world individually you probably don’t have very many who can play negotiator in the mideast. A lot of europe has had a lot of influx of middle eastern peoples over the years, and some countries haven’t had a good history with the Jewish people either.

Look at what’s happening in France. Small Jewish population, lots of Middle Eastern people… I think there is some sort of balancing act going on… On one hand you have new voters who support the Palestinians and feel for their cause and on the other hand you have the population who remember the horrors of WWII. You side with one side, the other side condems you the other side and there is the subtle suggestion that the terrorism in Israel can be experienced at home.

So what do you do as a political leader?

Hell, look at germany. Look at the laws they have in place since WWII… Then look at some of their problems they’ve had with immigrants and what not…

Some of the smaller european nations, The Netherlands and Denmark don’t have the same problems as England, Germany and France do. But (no offense) they lack the ability to force their will on others. Economic embargos won’t work, and as Coldfire said, sending their F16’s wouldn’t work either.

So what are we left with?

The US has a long history in the region, supportig factions here trying to overthrow a government there. And we’ve been a long time supporter of Israel. Add those two things together and you’ve got everyone in the region screaming at us for a variety of reasons.
The US also has the political and economic ability to exert its will.

The only other major power that played in the middle east was Russia… Who no longer has the ability to. They can’t even exert pressure with arms sales they need money so badly.
As to the comments about Oil interests…

Someone brought up alternative energy sources.

Who is the MOST afraid of the US developing that?

Not the oil companies. I expect that most of them have been banking on the eventual shift from Oil to something else as an energy source. They’ve had years to prepair.

Try the Oil Producing countries.

What would happen to the Saudi government if suddenly the US shifted to using power cells and other forms of hydrogen to generate power and fuel our cars? They’d collapse.

Sure we’d need SOME oil for manufacturing purposes. But we’d probably be buying it at 5% of the current price.

There isn’t a legacy of democracy in that part of the world, there is a history of individuals taking the discontent of the population and using it for their own political gain. When the people of many middle eastern countries suddenly see their oil derived weath disappear, how do you think they’d respond?

Arrg I’m out of thoughts.

Dunno if what I said was right, or even made sense.