Went to a polka party last night, and as always, wondered about these two points. Can anyone enlighten me?
I don’t know about kielbasa, but I assume that “keeshka” is what I call (stuffed) kishka, which is a kind of sausage made by stuffing intestines.
From The Cook’s Thesaurus:
So if you’re in a Polish community, then you’re hearing the Polish pronunciation. (I guess it’s like coppacola being called ‘gobba-gobba-hey’ – I mean ‘gobba-goo’ – in some parts of Italy.)
hmm - mainly German and Ukrainian, not Polish, but it’s always pronounced “koo” in my experience.
so is “kishka” simply a word for sausage?
In Polish, the character we know as L is pronounced the way English speakers would pronounce W, (since the W is pronounced closer to our V).
To indicate the L sound, Polish uses an L with a slash through the vertical stroke: Łł (if your browser supports the characters).
So the pronunciation that you hear is based on a reading of a transliteration (to English) of kiewbasa. (There are, of course, dialects in Poland as elsewhere and, combined with transmogrifications that were imposed at Ellis Island and in various American schoolrooms, you can also find Polish-Americans who pronounce it as keel-BAH-sa as well as those who say kew-BAH-sa.)
In Polish the ł in kiełbasa has a diagonal slash through it. This means it’s pronounced /w/.
Historically, that phoneme was a back or dark /l/, distinguished from a front or clear l (we have both sounds in English, although we don’t consider them separate phonemes). In modern Polish the dark /l/ sound has shifted to [w]. This happened in French too, compare auberge with Italian albergo. In French the dark /l/ shifted to u, while in Italian it stayed clear.
The diphthong “ie” is always pronounced “yeh” in Polish. So kiełbasa is pronounced k- + yeh + -w + BAHsa, and just squish all those sounds together smoothly. English doesn’t have any sequence of sounds like this one, although we’re familiar with the pieces, some assembly required.
I just learned an interesting fact from WP - the word is derived from Turkish külbastı. Growing up in Cleveland, I heard the Polish-Americans mispronouncing it “kolbasi” - they had a humorous song about it, “I Like Kolbasi”. I just found out that’s a Germanization of the word.
The Polish I’ve known haven’t pernounced it that way. They used the correct pernounciation.
My folks are from Poland, and I speak Polish. The correct pronunciation and explanations have been given by tomndebb and Johanna. The Cook’s Thesaurus citation is incorrect with the Polish pronuncation. The first syllable has a glide from the “k” to the “e”, hence “kyehw - BAH- sah” would be the usual pronunciation, as has been stated.
The word itself, with that spelling (and a slash through the “l”) is Polish.
Kiszka does not simply mean a sausage stuffed in intenstines. Most natural casing sausages are stuffed in intestines, and certainly the kielbasa at the Polish stores around here are. Kiszka, in the Polish usage, usually refers to a sausage made with blood and grains, either buckwheat or barley, stuffed into a natural casing. “Kiszka” literally means “intestine” in Polish. In the Jewish usage, it’s sausage stuffed with matzo meal and spices.
These sorts of blood sausages exist throughout Europe. In Germany, the equivalent is blutwurst, in Hungary, it’s véres hurka, in the UK, you have a similar idea with black pudding, etc…
“kyehw - BAH- sah” is what I consider the correct way also. Not koo-basa.
pulykamell I think you thought I meant one thing and I meant something else. I can see I wasn’t clear enough. I was responding to the topic, and not the other posters.
I think you’ve got it backwards, as Johanna points out. Though, of course, some instances of the Polish ‘Ł’ might be rendered as ‘L’ by those not aware of the difference or without access to the means to use the right character.
This is a lot closer to the pronunciation I picked up from my grandparents (my grandfather grew up in Poland; my grandmother was born in Brooklyn but didn’t speak a word of English until she started school). They say kuh-ba-si.
Intestines or sausage, depending on context. “Oy! My kishkas!” Is not a lament about sausages.
Perhaps it’s a regional thing. I’ve never heard it pronounced anything except “Keel-bassa.”
You could easily be right. My source was several pairs of families I knew where brothers spelled their family names differently to end -la or -wa. I was told by the kids that one brother had chosen to “keep” the spelling while the other brother had chosen to “keep” the pronunciation.
I wound up with a (mis)understanding that the form had gone from
-la to -la for spelling and
-la to -wa for pronunciation
with l = /w/
but I can see where the real decision would have been
-ła to -la to keep the look alike spelling if I have the sounds for /ł/ and /l/ confused.
How big is the Polish population of Burlington (or any neighborhoods you’ve lived)?
It does not take long for a foreighn language pronunciation to be swamped by the pronunciation of a larger community. In Greektown, Detroit, lamb on a pita with cucumber/yogurt sauce is a hEEEro. In many Detroit suburbs, it is a jEEro, and more distantly, it is a JIE-ro, all with the same spelling: gyro.
Look at all the Dutch place names. They were Germans not Dutch and it was Deutsche.
That’s what I’m puzzled by. The Polish community in Saskatchewan isn’t very big at all, compared to the German and Ukrainian communities, so I’m not sure why the Polish prononciation is the generally accepted one.
Yes, that’s the pronunciation I was trying to give. I forgot the second hyphen.
I’m kind of Pole-ish. Well… My grandparents were/are Poles. And Kitchener has had a large population of Poles for a long time. They’ve always pronounced it “keel-basa” or “kol-basa” depending on the sausage itself. I could never tell the difference.
Kielbasa is the accepted spelling here, and “keel-basa” the accepted pronunciation. Both at the stores and out in the community.
Either that or they just call it “Polish Sausage”
All I know about keeshka is that it’s round and firm and fully packed, someone stole it off the rack and they better bring it back.
I still have the 45 rpm record of Frankie Yankovic and his Yanks singing “Who Stole The Keeshka”, though I don’t think it’s the one with ‘Weird Al’ Yankovic accompanying Frank on the accordion.
It is also worth pointing out that to my knowledge, Congressman Dennis Kucinich is the only lawmaker with a Frankie Yankovic, polka and kielbasa tribute page on his website.
No, I understood you. It’s me who wasn’t being clear. I just quoted your post because it was the last one, and I didn’t mean to sound like I was disagreeing or countering you. My post was supposed to be a “me too” type of thing.