“More than that”? So a guitar is, inherently, more of a musical instrument than a set of drums? So Dr. J, hack guitarist, is a musician, while Gene Krupa, Keith Moon, Jon Fishman, Billy Martin, et. al., are not?
You’re digging yourself into a hole here.
Turntabling is, very roughly to music what the collage is to art. A collage takes existing bits and pieces and puts them together into something totally new. You might be able to tell where some of the pieces came from, and you might not. The point is that there is a whole new point. DJs do the same thing–the combine scratches, juggled beats, samples, and various other sounds into something totally new.
The biggest problem is that the most famous examples are from the likes of Puff Daddy, who would not know quality rap if it popped a cap in his ass. Editing the vocals out of a Police track so it can be rapped over does not constitute DJing. For much more creative use of recognizable samples, check out the Beastie Boys’ “Licenced to Ill” and its use of Led Zeppelin riffs.
Like all musical forms, 90% of rap is complete bilge. Like all other popular musical forms, the best/most artistic stuff is not the most popular. If you see “Baby One More Time” as music and “It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back” is not, then we have little to discuss on the subject.
i didn’t say a guitar is ‘more of a musical instrument than a set of drums’. i don’t know how you made that leap. what i said was that if you want to make the argument that a turntable is an instrument, i will acknowledge that it can be used as a percussion instrument, nothing more. with the exception of percussion, if you can’t play a note on command (provided you can actually play the instrument), then it’s not a musical instrument.
‘digging myself into a hole’. please. i’m sure buddy rich would’ve been real impressed by rap drumming.
Well, that depends, zwaldd, on who was held up for ol’ Buddy’s consideration. If you had, say, The Roots up on stage, he might say, “Change the order, there’s no way that we can rock after them.”
False argument. Any turntablist wrth their salt could put on a record that had an A note on it and play that for you. Bam. You have a note to tune by. They can also exhibt a much greater range of notes than any guitar or other conventianal instument.
I like rap music. I always have. It is highly original (if done correctly,) and can be truly artistic.
Favorites of mine:
[ul]
[li]De La Soul[/li][li]Tribe Called Quest[/li][li]Y’all So Stupid[/li][li]Black Sheep[/li][li]Pharcyde[/li][li]Ice Cube[/li][li]Public Enemy[/li][li]The Roots[/li][/ul]
I can’t stand B.I.G., Muff Daddy, or any of the huge cadre of “playa” rappers. They have nothing valuable to say.
[hijack. many apologies] "nigger" comment: Perhaps it’s because I’m white and from the South, and everyone in the country thinks we’re all a bunch of racists, but I hate the “there are niggers of all races” comment. That particular word is a terrible insult, and IMHO, one should not use it unless one wants to be branded as a racist idiot. This goes for Chris Rock. It’s a sure sign of mental laziness and irresponsibility.
[/hijack. oh so sorry. I should start a thread.]
There is a whole world of difference between creating a note and replaying a note. If I ask a sax player to play an “A”, they will play an “A”. If I ask a turntablist to play an “A”, they must flip through their records, find the applicable record, cue up the appropriate spot, then play the “A”.
A turntable does not have a greater range of notes than a decent keyboard / synthesizer.
A turntable, by its very definition, relies on notes that are played by another instrument. It cannot create sounds on its own. If you ask a turntablist to play an “A” without using material that someone else has recorded (and quite possibly copyrighted) already, they cannot help you.
I’m not trying to say that the turntable doesn’t have it’s place in modern music. It can add a whole new dimension to a song, and a good turntablist is pretty freakin’ cool to watch. However, it just isn’t an instrument in the truest sense of the word.
Turntable means that you are working in the world of vinyl. For a lot of older recordings, this means that their pitches may be off (ie, their “Middle C” is different from true “Middle C”). This makes it much more difficult to reliably play the “A” note mentioned previously.
per your comment, it’s not the argument that’s false, it’s my assumption about what turntablists are capable of musically that’s false. ok, i’ll buy that, although i suspect that you just called 99% of the turntablists respected by rap fans ‘not worth their salt’.
You’re operating on the assumption here that “musical instrument” can only be one of two things:
Something that can play a specific note, or
Percussion instruments.
Well… why? A musical instrument by definition is “an object used to produce musical sounds.” Thinking originally, why can’t the turntable be a new type of instrument?
This post is looking a bit more interesting since I last saw it over the weekend!!
First off, just like there’s a distinction between rap and hip-hop, there’s also a distinction between a turntablist and a rap dj. A rap dj will generally loop a sample over the entire song, and maybe break it down a couple times also. The turntablist is what has eveolved from the rap dj. Ever since hip-hop first came about, the “battle” followed. MCs and djs would come together and battle other MCs and djs. This was done to showcase one’s skills in order to gain respect and recognition. From these battles rose the “battle dj” (different from a party dj). The battle dj usually only carried a few select vinyl choices and needles. These select vinyl choices had all the “reproduceable sounds” he would need to put his set together. Some djs became infatuated with the sounds that were being created/reproduced and began experimenting with sounds…now rises the turntablist, not to be confused with a “regular” dj.
I don’t think there is going to be any agreement on what exactly constitutes a musical instrument. To me, seeing someone manipulate an inanimate object, to have a pleasant (to me)sound come out, that can cause me to feel some emotion, is music and the inanimate object a musical instrument. Doc j hit it on the head when he described turntablism as a collage of sound. This is exactly what the turntablist does. Sound bits are arranged, manipulated, chopped, etc. and then spewed out into something new. And the sound that comes out over the speakers is not necessarily the sound initially intended to be heard. A turntablist can move a sample faster or slower (than the recommended play speed) past the needle to create a new sound. Or they can just drop the needle on the vinyl to create a bass sound. Or they can hold a record in place and tap their finger on the vinyl (closer to the needle for a higher pitch, farther from the needle for a lower sound) and tap out a new beat. And most of today’s turntablists don’t just scratch or juggle over store-bought instrumentals. Alot of them have their own drum machines and keyboards. Again they’re not exactly “creating” those beats. They’re just pushing buttons, in a specific order, for a specific duration. The chip is actually creating the sound. It seems as though electronic music is not going to fit the traditional idea of what constitutes a musical instrument. But who cares. Only the individual (or the cast of Stomp) can judge what a musical instrument is.
Because it doesn’t actually produce any sounds of its own… it REPLAYS sounds that some other instrument produced.
Let’s say I play a song on my guitar. Somebody tapes the song with a tape recorder, then plays it back. Would you say that person was playing an instrument? Me neither. How, then, is a turntable any different?
BillyBoy-True, a turntable does replay sound…if it’s used like the manufacturer intended ie. you “play” a record. Say I had a guitar, a drum, and a turntable. If I never touched any of them, I would never here any sounds from them. If I strum a guitar string I get a sound from the vibration of the string. If I beat a drum, I get a sound from the vibration of the membrane. If I place a stylus on a record and move the record past the stylus (foward and backward) I get a sound. This new sound is not the sound originally meant to be heard. And by moving the record past the stylus (foward and backward) it would be synonymous to a guitar string or drum membrane vibrating. Have you seen Stomp? Would you say they produced music during their performance? Would you consider the “instruments” they used to be, well, instruments? I wish I could show you how DJ Qbert or DJ Craze attack vinyl the way they do. It’s analogous to to Hendrix on his guitar!
If a turntable is not an instrument, then the synthensizer by extension must not be either. A synthesizer has the similar function as a turntable, i.e. it plays sounds based on pre-recorded data (the keys are programmed to play a sound or group of sounds depending on the programmed tone). Though it has a keyboard interface, pressing hard or soft on a synthesizer is a non-factor of the sound being played. Like a turntable, the data of the synthesizer can be changed, by upgrading the software and drivers running it. People like Kraftwerk must be decidedly non-musicians then. You have heard of that non-musical piece, “Trans-Europe Express”, haven’t you?
I actually discussed synthesizers with a friend last weekend. Evidently you are not familiar with weighted action, velocity sensitive keyboards (see Fatar music controllers). The manipulation of the keyboard is critical to the production of the music being created by the instrument. Again, you may have misunderstood my opinion on turntables. There is definite artistry in scratching, I just have a different level of respect for someone who is creating music directly instead of manipulating samples of someone else’s.
i used to be an accomplished turntablist myself. back in high school, i distinctly rememember playing pink floyd’s ‘the wall’ in its entirety using nothing but a turntable and a couple of records. and if you think that’s impressive, i once played ‘layla’ on the turntable while simultaneously playing along with it on the guitar!
(i know it’s not the same thing. i just thought it was funny)
on a side note, one of the things i miss about turntables - the later models - is the ability to change the speed slightly up or down. to play ‘layla’ along with a cd, i have to tune my guitar up a quarter step - kind of a pain in the ass.
how come this thread hasn’t been thrown out of the pit for a lack of swearing and flaming?
Jesus, I just can’t seem to let this go! Especially since it really doesn’t matter. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and definitions of terms, and even though I may disagree with you, I still respect your opinions. But hey, what if the turntablist had his/her own samples (created from scratch using a “normal” musical instrument)pressed on vinyl (these presses are available to the really hardcore tablists)? Is the turntable a musical intsrument now, or no?