Why is the medieval period so attractive to "geeks"?

The first thing I’m compelled to do is point out that Tolkien is not the originator of modern fantasy literature. Robert E, Howard’s Conan and Kull sword and sorcery stories predated Tolkein by several years. Howard was also better known than Tolkein to the population in general. Within their lifetimes and careers (which overlapped somewhat) I think that Howard had more readers than Tolkein ever managed. That was certainly true after they died. Throughout the twentieth Century far more people would have recognised Conan than Bilbo or Gandalf. Prior to the PJ LOTR movies Tolkein it was largely unknown. In contrast Conan was genuinely popular (albeit geeky) culture with is own successful comics titles for many years in addition to the short stories and novels by several authors, a TV series and the Schwarzeneger movies. Conan in the last century was on par with Star Trek in terms of “geek popular culture” (is that an oxymoron?)

Tolkein certainly managed to elevate the fantasy genre to a more ‘classy’ place, but it already existed and was already popular pre-Hobbit and presumably would have been popular had Tolkein never lived at all. For all that Gygax and Co. stole shamelessly from Tolkein, they plagiarised Howard just as shamelessly. The Barbarian class that hates and fears magic is pure Conan. The other core concept of D&D that is pure Howard as is the concept of wizards needing time to gesture flamboyantly and use ingredients. That gives the sword wielding hero time to run across the floor and disrupt the spell, a device used many times by Howard as well as the Conan comics lines.

The reason I think it’s important to realise that modern fantasy didn’t start with Tolkein is because Conan, Kull and Red Sonja were also wandering around in faux-Medieval times (though often the Hyborian age seems more like Hellenstic Greece/Classical Rome politically). And of course Howard’s fantasy initially appeared in that great harbinger of geek culture: the pulp magazine. The pulps not only gave us fantasy but Sci-fi, the Cthulhu mythos and the western. They really were the breeding grounds for 20th century geekdom. The uber-point being that the medieval setting was already a fixture of geek culture before the Hobbit was published.

So why the Medieval period? Well as a mildly geeky person (who was much geekier when younger) I can say that Tolkein ain’t the reason. I was already enthralled by magical medieval settings long before I discovered Tolkein at 13. I promply became a devoted fan of Tolkein and thereafter of RPGs, but that was because they were the medieval magical settings I loved, not the cause of that love. I was enthralled by the Greek and Roman myths from the time I first read them as a very young child in picture book form. I read a Conan novel when I was about 10. I devoured the Narnia series. And I think these experiences would be pretty typical of those of us who like this sort of Medieval geekery. Narnia, classical mythology, Authurian legend and the Gummi bears formed a pattern that Tolkein and D&D slotted into. Tolkein and D&D were in now way the cause. They were selling to a market that already existed.

It’s very hard to articulate why I was drawn to medieval fantasy, and in reality I think that there were lots of reasons that sort of came together in that genre. Part of it was the depth of the genre. These weren’t isolated characters, these were whole other world. Jason turned up in unrelated stories and talked to Odysseus, Atlas turned up and talked to Hercules and so forth. These characters all knew each other and all were interwoven. To a boy who had a mind that loved to categorise the world this was fascinating. It was a whole new world to categorise, but a simple one, so much easier than messy reality. So in that sense it appeals to the smartarse in me, and most geeks are smartarses in the sense that we know that we’re clever and like everyone else to know we are too.

The other big drawcard was the limitless horizons and infinite capacity for problem solving. I was a very bright child (shame it never extended into adulthood :wink: ) and quite frankly a lot of the world bored me. School seemed to teach things exceptionally slowly (though I wouldn’t have been able to articulate that at the time). I felt that everything had an answer and every problem had a solution but that I wasn’t being taught what it was fast enough to put all the pieces together. Magical fantasy solved that problem. In that world the hero can wave his hand and solve the problem with magic. There’s no need to worry about annoying details, there is a problem and there is a complete solution. I envied those characters that lived in a world where the solutions could be so unambiguous. Cowboy novels and other genres can have perfect solutions, but they can never be as total as the labours of Hercules or Bilbo: there are a million bandit gangs but once you eliminate the Symphalian birds or killed Sauron you’ve done it forever. You’ve changed the world forever, not just made it better for a little bit

The other thing was that the heroes in these stories are special. They aren’t just talented or hardworking or brave like the people in detective or cowboy stories, they have genuine special talents from the Gods or wherever. That definitely appeals to the geek in me. I think all geeks think they have special gifts, especially adolescent boys. Some grow out of that belief more than others.

Of course all those things could apply to other genres, but it’s hard to combine them as seamlessly as fantasy literature does. Cowboy novels can have easy solutions but never total solutions because they are tied to the real world. For the same reason superhero can have special abilities but suffer form the same problem as cowboys. Sci fi characters can change the world, but they don’t have special abilities (a notable exception being the Star Wars style fantasy where the hero did indeed have special magical powers, and became a geek icon as a result).

So IMO fantasy literature just happens to be a convenient place to blend a whole lot of geek attractive traits into one consistent whole.

I can’t remember ever thinking like that though. In most fantasy literature the guilds aren’t really all that important. Being competent may have helped, but most fantasy stories seem to focus more on the blunders of totally incompetent people who muddle through. After all Bilbo never really advances via any kind of guild or competence, in fact quite the opposite, he is thrown into a situation that he has no training or experience in. The same is true of the Pevensy children in the Narnia series. Conan advanced through determination and hard knocks rather than any competence or guild association. In fact it seems to me that most medieval fantasy characters are people the authors take pains to point out aren’t guild members and are specifically not trained. They seem to be mostly outsiders who train themselves if not outright loners.

While it’s true that fantasy stories ignore the majority of the population who live menial lives that’s true of all adventure isn’t it? Detective stories don’t include the lives of taxi drivers, cowboy books rarely even mention actual cowboy work, which is boring and tedious, we never see the mailroom workers at The Daily Planet and so on.

Interestingly enough, all the talk here of chivalry and adventure and saving damsels in distress etc etc etc would actually involve interacting with other people out in the real world. Travel, getting up out of the chair and out from behind the computer keyboard. You know - fantasy stuff.

I think that most geeks (or young men in general) need an outlet for their heroic impulses. An alternate world or era generally makes a simple backdrop for heroic adventures.

Fantasy: Kill the monsters, be a hero.
Sci-Fi: Kill the aliens, be a hero.
Wild West: Kill the bandits, be a hero.
WW II: Kill the Nazis, be a hero.
Civil War: Kill the Yankees, be a hero.
Real life: Erm…

In real life, the closest thing to being a hero for a teenage boy is to be the captain of the football team and get laid a lot. If a geek were to read books and play video games/RPGs in which the protagonist is the captain of the football team who gets a lot of tail, it would just be too obvious; much lamer than D&D.

Or it could be that geeks think that D&D etc. are fun and don’t care about the social ramifications; they aren’t into fantasy because they’re geeks, they’re geeks because they don’t care who knows they’re into fantasy.

Do we really need to explain why swords = cool? :smiley:

Still, one thing I might point out is that we colloquially smoosh together vast swaths of history and myth to create the aura of an era you’re talking about. Medieval, dark ages, renaissance, age of chivalry, Arthurian Briton, Roman gladiator, Nordic battle sagas, Robin Hood - these are not all the same time period, by centuries. It’s easy to confuse them, especially thanks to fantasy novels. It seems that any time a boob-holder (bodice or kirtle) is worn on the outside, or a sword of any size, shape or material is used, people put it in one mental group.

In 400 years, Civil War buffs and WWII junkies may very easily be viewed as the same camps of folks - it’s less than a century apart, for goodness’ sakes!

So when you ask why geeks like this genre, you’re really asking about a fondness for a huge chunk of history and myth - not why we fixate on one specific time period in history. It’s a fixation on one or many time periods - all pre brassiere.

I am puzzled. What’s a “Renaissance Fair/Faire/Fayre”? I’ve only ever heard of them through that episode of The Simpsons called “They Saved Lisa’s Brain” - don’t tell me you Americans actually do that sort of thing? I thought it was just a piss-take!!

I reckon that the Mediaeval (correct spelling where I come from) period (a couple of hundred years before the Renaissance, by the way) only appeals to American geeks. Maybe it’s because you don’t have any real mediaeval stuff close to hand, unlike us over here in Europe. Oh, and the cleavages.

I am a (female) geek who adores the medieval period.

I can pinpoint exactly the time my love affair started. When I was a child I was an avid reader, and read a very romanticized version of Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table. The book fascinated me, enthralled me, and drew me in deep.

I grew up, and learned that real knights were barbaric, cruel, and slobs. But just as I deny the existence of any further Highlander movies (there really was only one) I ignore the reality and choose to remain in the fantasy of chivalry, honor, simply beauty, a time when things were simpler.

Other than that I don’t have much logic behind it.

Have YOU ever seen female RenFaire femles? :smiley:

Yes, many Americans seem to do this sort of thing.

They dress up, call the women wenches, and eat giant turkey legs like 'Enry the Eighth.

I was just thinking of posting the very same thing… but I was going to say it in a way that makes more sense. :wink:

Bristol Ren Faire

Yes. Yes, I have.

Unknown? First of all, the series was extremely popular in the 1960s (hence the popular graffiti: Frodo Lives). More than 50 million copies were sold in 25 countries before the movies came out. Some people consider it the second-most-read book of the 20th century (after the Bible). While I can’t confirm that claim, simple logic will tell you that a series doesn’t stay continuously in print for 60 years without selling a few copies.

Years ago I had a conversation on the old CompuServe Fantasy Lit forum with Raymond Feist and CJ Cherryh about this very subject. Feist was less than enlightening and Cherryh barely more so. I’d rather share my own thoughts. :slight_smile:

There are two very different strains of medievalism that we really should be at pains not to confuse.

People rightly point to Tolkien a formative influence on the genre. His work is not, crudely, “warmed over Norse mythology.” Tolkien does draw heavily on early and pre-medieval vernacular poetry of northern Europe. Linguistic discussion aside, this body of work highlights traditionally northern themes that Tolkien greatly admired: grim courage, moral certitude in the face of certain defeat, and relentless preparation for the “final battle.” It is a world where all choices end in pain and death, and heroes are made by dying well and never compromising with their fates. These themes have been picked up by several major late 20th century fantasy authors, though without the depth, subtlety, and linguistic mastery demonstrated by Tolkien.

This northern worldview is at once more and less realistic than its obverse, the chivalric romance. It is grim: the depictions of battle, of the landscape, and of the misery of the protagonists are hard-hitting. However, this is a world populated only by heroes, villains, and cowards. Daily life or interpersonal relations that do not foreground the hero’s ethical character are simply omitted as irrelevant. The style is very sublime.

Many people in the modern world do not share this grim aesthetic. Tolkien rendered northern themes more palatable to modern tastes with two major innovations that I can think of offhand: he engendered deep compassion for the main characters by grounding them in their daily lives and social relations (hobbits in the Shire, Faramir & Ioreth in the Houses of Healing), and he allowed the heroes to achieve victory. This appeals to the modern fetish for “progress”, even though this victory was earned at no small cost. The great northern epics and sagas end with the spectacular death or decay and death of the hero: one needs only to think of Njall’s Saga, Beowulf, and the Poetic Edda.

Tolkien is very strongly pre- and post-medieval in his literary influences and aesthetic.

Consider the Arthurian cycle, which has captivated the hearts of millions untold. These derive from a later medieval tradition best exemplified by French romance, especially Chretien de Troyes. The aesthetic is far more “medieval” in the conventional sense insofar as it reflects prevailing social and political mores far more than the earlier northern tradition. Men refer to each other in political and social terms (count, vavasor, baron) and their stories of conflicting feudal loyalty are fundamental to the main conflicts of French epic (Raoul de Cambrai, William of Orange). These elements are absolutely absent from the northern Tolkienian tradition.

Once again, we find that this strain of literature is more real and less real than the northern. We see far less grittiness, yet far more examples of daily life, social interaction, and representation of other classes of people besides the warrior aristocracy. However, these characters and set pieces (conversations with noble ladies, etc) exist once again to highlight the ethical character of the hero. They lack independent ethical character, personality, goals, or dare I say realism. They exist for the knight’s benefit. The knight’s aim is not to die well in an unwinnable battle for the side that is right, but to internalize the martial laws of chivalry and apply them to his social interaction. An ethical knight is a questing knight, a knight who pursues highborn women, a knight who has contempt for all that is villainous and low. Villein is, of course, an early French word for peasant.

The northern and southern strains of medieval literature are vastly different, yet generic medieval fantasy literature seems to attract huge numbers of readers. Authors combine these two traditions in ways that are sometimes inventive and other times quite loathsome. Bu what accounts for its continued appeal? I dunno, but I have some guesses.

The individual is in high relief. His actions are only minimally constrained by a practically nonexistent state. Conflict is generated when characters are constrained only by their ethics and their passions. This is not a literature in which heroes typically renegotiate their relationships with society and with prevailing authority. Many exceptions occur, of course, but I think the point is still relevant. The medieval hero is am empowering figure: he survives by dint of his cleverness, the strength of his arm, and the force of his character. We all want to be that guy, let’s face it. Especially those labeled “geeks,” who are viewed as traditionally disempowered.

Myth is a powerful force that appeals to great numbers of people. Myth is most powerful when our factual knowledge of a period or place is relatively limited. Quite frankly, there is a whole hell of a lot that we do not know about the early middle ages. Medieval people created myths to fill their own gaps in historical knowledge, and we do the same for ourselves. Modern scientific and rational thinking has made it difficult to form myths about modern eras, that is, eras that somehow benefitted from said science and rationalism. So we are essentially stuck creating myths about the same premodern periods that medieval people were concentrating on. Many perceive the ancient world as a bastion of rationalism and progress, so it makes less sense to invent magical mystery myths about Greece and Rome. Personally, I believe they are mistaken. The popularity of non-medieval mythical literature is testament to this. Steampunk and gothic horror demonstrate that people can create believable myths set in modern settings.

Fantasy is often morally satisfying to read. It rarely challenges our prevailing ideas of heroism and sacrifice. The fact that the good guys always win by sticking to their guns (or longbows) is reassuring to moderns who live in a world where good people suffer, bad people win, and there is so much information in the world that is hard to make sense of. It is reinforces what we want to believe about the world, that it is ultimately intelligible and that we can trust our convictions to see us through to victory.

Life is hard. Fantasies of knighthood use the so-called chivalric code to create beauty out of both abject misery and social mundanity. In our sanitary, mundane world, we crave some internal mechanism to create beauty out of strip malls, efficiency blocks, and trips to the DMV. The tradition of medieval romance appeals to the desire for a transcendent life of beauty in all of us. Knighthood is not a class into which you were born or about the weapons you use, it is the soul that you carry around inside. It can have a transformative effect on yourself and on the world around you.

This, of course, was viciously parodied in Don Quixote. Its hold on the modern imagination remains, in my opinion, undiminished.

I have some more thoughts, but I think I have overstated my welcome enough as it is.

Nitpick, Conan had several ongoing series at Marve alone. Other Nitpick- Conan had at least three television series

#1-Animated, Conan, the wizard Sasha, the (black Tarzan guy “By the sign of the Jabal Zahkk, hear me my animal brothers!”), face off against the serpent men hordes of Set using Star Metal weapons.

#2-Animated, the first series switches networks and undergoes many changes. Conan now travels with three gifted children (magic armor boy, talks to animals boy, and I can’t freaking remember girl). This series is less battle intensive, less intense and frightening, and targets a younger audience.

#3 There was an SF/fantasy syndicated series boom in the nineties-Lost World, Mortal Kombat, Star Hunter, Robin Hood, Sinbad, Beast Master etc. There was also a live action Conan series. The dwarf who appeared as Mickey Abbot on Seinfeld, was a thief/comic relief. One of Conan’s companions was a mute. Conan’s quest was to find the citadel of the sorceror Hyss Hazzul and destroy him. When not plotting and casting spells, Hyss Hazzul passed the time by gambling for rubies with his demonic skull-in-a-vat-of-bubbling-goo-and-vapor familiar.

I also disagree with you about Conan drawing geeks to the middle ages. Outside of the immediate experiences of Kull, Bran Mak Morn, Conan and the rest, Howard’s worlds were vague places-Picts over there, Phrygians over there, The dread sorcerors of Lemuria down that way. There was no deeper, more detailed world for fans to immerse themselves in. Tolkien, on the other hand, created one heck of a detailed and intricate world-fans could study its history, learn its many languages, study the social customs of its many peoples, etc.

Re Ren Faires

I’m seriously thinking of going as a leper this year. I just need a large bolt of period material, period bandages, twine, a few bells (I already have a staff) and I can quickly make a basic costume. With some make up, sugarless gum, and raw chicken I can put in the finishing details.

I think I mostly enjoy it because I look good in a corset. :slight_smile:

Ren Faires are for punks. 'nuff said.

SCA SCA! SCA!

I prefer my medieval reenactment peppered with fantasy, and that the battles aren’t done with weapons that could actually kill, and are hazradous enough that proof of crotch, kidney, throat and head protection must be provided before stepping onto the field of battle.

I do have a bunch of old Darkon weapons. One needs a new cover. One or two need a new stabbing tip. Then, I shall be ready to lay on.

I don’t have time for that, and I can’t sew very well. :slight_smile:

Hey! That second one is from GenCon…

Isn’t that just as simplified as the romanticized view of knights? :wink: