Why is the medieval period so attractive to "geeks"?

[Kinthalis]

I’m a big medieval geek. Loved the whole thing since the first time I picked up a book on Arthurian legend, and was totally hooked since the first time my parents took me to a Renn Fair.

When I was growing up I was certainly into the whole D&D/dressing up thing but later I found I was no longer interested in the fantasy of it all. Now I’d much rather read a large book on medieval history than delve into the latest Dragonlance novel. I’ve also left my cloak and breeches behind and took up the study of Medieval Martial arts as they really were.

So my inclinations within the genre have certainly changed through my life, but the whole draw of medieval romanticism is still there, and likely will always be, and for all the reasons mentioned here so far.

To me it’s no more strange or unhealthy as the rest of my friends enjoying the occasional round of golf or collecting sports memorabilia.

[kelly5078]

This is a ramble. Sorry.

The medieval period is not just attractive to geeks, and its attractiveness did not begin with Tolkien, or with Howard. There are at least three older sources that have to be considered:

• The Arthurian legends, which started rolling with Geoffrey of Monmouth, and kicked into high gear with Malory’s “Le Morte d’Arthur;”
• The perennial popularity of Chaucer, especially, of course, the “Canterbury Tales;” and
• The phenomenal success of Sir Walter Scott’s novels.

I have googled in vain for accounts of 12th and 14th century geekiness, but Mark Twain has quite a bit to say in Life on the Mississippi (none of it flattering) about the popularity of Scott in the south. He makes the plantation owners out as geeks of the first magnitude. Also, reading his description of Mardi Gras, I came away thinking, “Hmm, Mardi Gras is a frickin’ a RenFest.”

I’m not all that geeky myself, at least in this regard, but I did have quite a fascination with medieval stuff from having seen “Ivanhoe” and “Knights of the Round Table” as a kid. The neighborhood kids ran around with lances (willow branches), wooden swords, and shields, and whacked the hell out of each other with them. And these movies were 10 years old by the time we saw them.

So I think that the highly-distorted literary depictions of medieval times has grabbed the popular imagination for centuries. We discard all the nasty realities of that era, and are left with something that is primal, exciting, and morally unambiguous. Swords are fun. Magic swords are even more fun. So are really, really bad guys and really, really good guys (hey, that’s me!). Add in elves, gnomes, fairies, dryads, naiads, castles, monsters, demons, secret places, and magic, and you’ve got a world that’s really worth living in.

The only difference between geeks and non-geeks with regard to this stuff is that the geek is a little more able to suspend disbelief while indulging in the fantasy. They’re all at their desks bright and early Monday morning with the rest of us, though.

[Blake]

@Hello Again

Unknown? First of all, the series was extremely popular in the 1960s (hence the popular graffiti: Frodo Lives). More than 50 million copies were sold in 25 countries before the movies came out. Some people consider it the second-most-read book of the 20th century (after the Bible). While I can’t confirm that claim, simple logic will tell you that a series doesn’t stay continuously in print for 60 years without selling a few copies.

It certainly did sell a few copies, but 50 million copies over 50 years in a world with 6 billion people? It’s largely unknown.

In contrast the first Conan movie alone sold about 10 million tickets in 1 year, and was seen by countless others on video, TV etc. Meanwhile factor in >100, 000 a month in comics sales for 20 years, plus the original pulps and reprints etc. Hard to calculate how many ‘copies’ of Conan were ‘produced’, but I would be suprised if it were less than a billion.

Are you really disputing that the average western person in 1999 would have had at least a vague idea who Conan was? While at the same time the vast majority of people wouldn’t have had any idea who Frodo was? Conan was at least on the same level as Capt. Kirk in the sense that people at least knew of him. Tolkein remained largely outside of true popular culture. Like many authors he may have sold alot of books but most people had never read those books. Because Conan had books, TV shows, short stories, movies, comics etc. he had become true pop culture. It was impossible to grow up in the 20th century and not be repeatedly exposed to Conan no matter what you read.

[msmith537]

Ok, the correct non-geek answer to the “Conan vs Tolkein” debate is “who gives a shit?”.

The only familiarity with Conan most people should have is the Schwartzenigger movie from the 80s and its crappy sequal.

Most people (prior to the films) should at least know that there was an author named Tolkien who wrote a bunch of books about wizards and dwarfs and whatnot and that his work is referenced in Led Zeppelin lyrics.
The reason “geeks” glom onto fantasy like psuedo-midievil swords & sorcery or science fiction is because their reality is so lame by comparison. Jocks get to live out their aggressive fantasies on the football field. People with active social lives or girlfriends don’t have time to devote countless hours to designing and wearing a complete Storm Trooper’s uniform. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying everyone who watches Star Wars or likes Renaisance Faires is a dork or whatever. Most people I know like Star Wars on some level. But IMHO, excessive indulgance in fantasy is way for many of these people to fill a gaping void in their lives.

It is, in fact, different from enjoying a round of golf or sking or other activities because one does not pretend they are another person or roll play when golfing. My golf buddies do not roll to see who gets to be Tiger Woods this week. But to a certain extent, I would characterize excessive collection of sports memorbillia as “geeky”. The only difference is this geek is of the fat wanna-be athlete variety. Why does a grown man wear some millionares jersey around like he was his girlfriend?

It’s like the old saying goes- it’s ok to build castles in the sky…it’s not ok to live in them.

[Kinthalis]

@msmith537

The reason “geeks” glom onto fantasy like psuedo-midievil swords & sorcery or science fiction is because their reality is so lame by comparison. Jocks get to live out their aggressive fantasies on the football field. People with active social lives or girlfriends don’t have time to devote countless hours to designing and wearing a complete Storm Trooper’s uniform. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying everyone who watches Star Wars or likes Renaisance Faires is a dork or whatever. Most people I know like Star Wars on some level. But IMHO, excessive indulgance in fantasy is way for many of these people to fill a gaping void in their lives.

It is, in fact, different from enjoying a round of golf or sking or other activities because one does not pretend they are another person or roll play when golfing. My golf buddies do not roll to see who gets to be Tiger Woods this week. But to a certain extent, I would characterize excessive collection of sports memorbillia as “geeky”. The only difference is this geek is of the fat wanna-be athlete variety. Why does a grown man wear some millionares jersey around like he was his girlfriend?

It’s like the old saying goes- it’s ok to build castles in the sky…it’s not ok to live in them.

I think this applies to ANYTHING, not just fantasy games. Too much of ANYTHING is unhealthy and probably a sign of bigger problems.

Is the excessive gambler that sells his home not as bad (or worse?), how about the golfer that prefers playing to spending time with his family? Or the dumb jock who is just so sure he won’t need any education because he’ll make pro in no time?

There are plenty of people into various things that do it in a healthy way, for entirely healthy reasons and actually manage to keep an interesting and social personal life. This includes people who are into fanatsy games, Renn Faires, and medieval martial arts

[Hello_Again]

@Blake

Are you really disputing that the average western person in 1999 would have had at least a vague idea who Conan was? While at the same time the vast majority of people wouldn’t have had any idea who Frodo was? … It was impossible to grow up in the 20th century and not be repeatedly exposed to Conan no matter what you read.

Yes, I am disputing this entirely. Frankly I find the claim shocking and improbable. Obviously I find myself to be exhibit A. I have never read anything Conan-related, nor known anyone who did – I am 30. I never had a peer hand me a Conan novel and say “you have to read this!” My only knowledge of Conan is from the Schwarzenegger movie – I didn’t even know it was based on a book until many, many years later! And I read a LOT of SF & Fantasy growing up (still do). Conan has not had near the influence on the modern Fantasy genre that Tolkein has. His influence is so pervasive within Fantasy that writers continually struggle to get out from under his shadow. That is, the ones who aren’t brazenly copying his style.

The Hobbit is quite a popular children’s book, and many people are exposed to it through “recommended reading” lists at school.

[soulmurk]

Another possible reason occured to me earlier, let’s see if I can dredge up the thought and relay it into a coherent statement.

The times (by which I mean Dark Ages, which is where most of my gaming scenarios take place) were full of superstitions and lacking in the science and technology to prove or disprove them.

The earth didn’t quake because tectonic plates were shifting deep underground, it was because a god was angry. Cattle didn’t disappear, a hippogriff swept one off in the night. Sailors were beckoned by sirens and mermaids and the fey were everywhere, always dancing just out of sight. So on and so forth.

Everything had a fantastic explanation and magic was possible, if only because it wasn’t proven to not be possible. The superstitions and beliefs, looking back at them now, seem primitive and pretty silly. But, it gives a real world place to have fantastic adventures and wield mighty magic without a ready explanation to disprove any of it.

Perhaps it was stories of Merlin and Gandalf that led most to identify with those periods of time, but something led the writers of those stories there too and my opinion is that it was the sheer openness and adaptability of the time.

Plus, I bet Draelin really does look great in a corset.

[DocCathode]

@msmith537

It’s like the old saying goes- it’s ok to build castles in the sky…it’s not ok to live in them.

The hell it isn’t! The rent’s unbelievably low, I’ve got a walk in freezer, and not one Jehovah’s Witness has ever come to my door.

[even_sven]

I think there are a few aspects.

A big one is that Americans in general feel a lack of roots. I think we all know one guy who refuses to go to wedding in anything but “his” scottish tartan kilt (note: kilts and tartans are fairly recent inventions and chances are abominally slim that you have any personal claim to one) or someone who has a great-great-great grandpa who was Irish and insists on naming his kid “Caitlin” to celebrate his heritage. We seek ties to Europe to give us a sense of history, even when that connection is thin.

Another thing (which was mentioned earlier) is that medieval society is potrayed as very black-and-white. For some reason, a lot of geeks see the world in a very decisive right-or-wrong way. They want a clear morality with clear answers.

I think that “nice guy syndrome” plays in to this last one as well. Geeks imagine that in these medieval times, when everything was clear and men were men and women were women, girls would stop being so damn wierd and complicated and understand that they really are worth having sex with.

[Odesio]

@seosamh

I am puzzled. What’s a “Renaissance Fair/Faire/Fayre”? I’ve only ever heard of them through that episode of The Simpsons called “They Saved Lisa’s Brain” - don’t tell me you Americans actually do that sort of thing? I thought it was just a piss-take!!

Nope, several European cities hold festives that would be somewhat similiar to ren fairs here in the states. Except maybe bigger. Alnwick in Northumberland holds an annual festival where nearly the whole town dresses up in period costume. I went to a simliar event in Munich complete with jousting and all sorts of other cool activities. It isn’t just an American thing though I admit it makes a bit more sense over there then it does here.

Marc

[Sarah_Woodruff]

@Anaamika

When I was a child I was an avid reader, and read a very romanticized version of Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table.

This ties in with what I was going to say, which is:
blame those original geeks, the Victorians. They went all soppy and melodramatic on the bloodshed, body odour, bad teeth, gangrene, Black Death and childbed fever that was the Middle Ages, and its never been the same since.

[Oy]

Forget about Conan and Tolkien. *Fairy tales * are all in a more or less mediaeval setting.

[Maeglin]

The reason “geeks” glom onto fantasy like psuedo-midievil swords & sorcery or science fiction is because their reality is so lame by comparison.

This is a very shoddy argument. Excessive geekdom could very well be the cause of a person’s lame reality, not its symptom. In this case, any kind of alternative reality that distracts a person from cleaning up his daily life is dangerous. A strong interest in sports memorabilia or obsessive team fandom is no less pathetic because the object of fandom is more acceptable to most of society. In fact, I find it more pathetic because it is intrinsically less imaginative than escaping into a fairy-tale reality.

The lazy cubicle sportsfan fucks down the hall are welcome to rib me for playing D&D instead of watching the Big Game. And I am free to rib them for not being able to run three lousy miles without passing out or for not being able to get laid. I’ll take my reality over theirs any day.

[mbh]

Come with us, O readers, to a word where gleaming cities raise silver spires against the stars, sorcerers cast spells from subterranean lairs, baleful spirits stalk crumbling ruins, primeval monsters crash through jungle thickets, and the fate of kingdoms is balanced on the blades of broadswords brandished by heroes of preturnatural might and valor.

In this world men are mighty, women are beautiful, problems are simple, life is adventurous, and nobody has even heard of inflation, the petroleum shortage, or atmospheric pollution!

L. Sprague de Camp and Lin Carter, on the appeal of Robert E. Howard’s stories.

[clairobscur]

@MGibson

Nope, several European cities hold festives that would be somewhat similiar to ren fairs here in the states. Except maybe bigger. Alnwick in Northumberland holds an annual festival where nearly the whole town dresses up in period costume. I went to a simliar event in Munich complete with jousting and all sorts of other cool activities. It isn’t just an American thing though I admit it makes a bit more sense over there then it does here.

Marc

Actually, nowadays, medieval fairs are everywhere in France. Every other town with some medieval remain (and sometimes without any) organizes one.

[Sleel]

Renaissance Faires aren’t attractive just to geeks. There are a lot more “normal” people than geeks at those things. The medieval period is pretty darn popular. Some of the shows that get the biggest number of viewers on the History Channel, for example, are shows about that time.

I don’t think Conan had anything to do with medieval fantasy. Conan pretty clearly lives in a fantasy version Iron-Age world.

I think the appeal of the medieval era for most people is that it is a distant enough time to romanticize, there’s a sense of connection since at least half the US is of European origin, and it has little to do with our modern, sometimes excessively rational world. There’s also the appeal (for people who don’t know much about it) of it being a simpler time than our own. It’s a time period that lends itself to fantasy in a way that the Enlightenment and post-Industrial Revolution worlds don’t.

Ancient civilizations aren’t quite as attractive because they’re a bit too distant for connection. Existing mythology colors that time too much anyway. When you’ve got stories like the Iliad or Jason and the Argonauts already, it’s hard to create something that doesn’t sound too derivative.

After early medieval times, many of the stories ended up being Christian homilies. Compared to smiting enemies and defeating enchantments, defying vice and pursuing virtue is a bit of a let-down. That leaves several hundred years practically lying about just waiting to be appropriated by a fantasy writer.

For geeks, besides the enormous body of existing fantasy literature, games, etc. that are set in that time, there is the appeal of learning about something that most people don’t know. That knowledge is often difficult to find and entails learning different languages, most of them known by a very few people, if you want to get to the really good stuff. If you want to get Freudian, I’m sure there’s something you can do with swords = phallic objects, armor = Ego protection.

And then there’re the chicks in bodices.

[Lissla_Lissar]

Does a 16 to 18th century corsety type bodice thingy really connect with ‘medieval’ in any way? Or am I being overly pedantic?

Yes, yes I am. Nevertheless cotehardies are more comfy than stays.

[WhyNot]

@Lissla Lissar

Does a 16 to 18th century corsety type bodice thingy really connect with ‘medieval’ in any way? Or am I being overly pedantic?

Yes, yes I am. Nevertheless cotehardies are more comfy than stays.

Only in the “booby-holder-on-the-outside” way which I noted before. (Cotehardies aren’t much in the way of booby-holders, to be sure, but they are generally tight enough to the hip to do the job for all but women shaped like me.)

Please, most people can’t tell a farthingale from a crinoline. What’s 600 years of fashion history among geeks?

[Scissorjack]

@The Sausage Creature

The Highwayman and I wondered why it was that the Medieval period and not say, Classical Rome, is often the motif for roleplaying games.

The theory we came upon after discussing it was the relative sense of lawlessness and individuality that filled the order vacuum after the Roman empire fell. {snip}

I think you’ll find that the Old West is rather geeky too (just look at my family, bunch o’ Old West geeks if ever I saw 'em!) for pretty much the same reason.

Of course, these were the two most popular attractions in Westworld, and we all know how that turned out.

[DarkPrince]

@pinkfreud

From all the ogling I got at the only Renaissance Faire I’ve ever attended, my theory is that male geeks like Ren Faires largely because of the cleavage.

Corsets are god’s gift to nerdkind.