Why is this ok?

Great Debates
21

I guess the question is, are there any sacred objects in humour? I would say that almost any subject can be funny if approached in the right way.

But depending on your culture and environment, some things that others will find funny will offend you. And I don’t think it’s wrong to try and have consideration for other people’s feelings when you tell a joke. e.g. I wouldn’t tell a joke about mother-in-laws to someone whose mother-in-law has just died. And if you tell a joke about niggers to someone who’s been harassed by white supremacists, you can expect them to call you an asshole.

The jokes you find funny area reflection of your character. And people will judge you by that. So if you tell a joke that most people would find offensive, don’t be surprised when they call you on it. Your right to tell or laugh at such jokes does not include the right to have everybody else think you’re a witty guy.

La franchise ne consiste pas à dire tout ce que l’on pense, mais à penser tout ce que l’on dit.
H. de Livry

22

I’m not going to speak for Konrad either, but I know that was my intent when I posted what I did.

By the way, smilingjaws, you still haven’t answered my question, even though I was kind enough to answer yours. Which one of us has the questionable job, me or Byzantine?

23

Sorry Drainbean, I thought your post was by the next poster who was at one point an exotic dancer and has posted a lot on that point. I have no idea what type of job you have. I couldn’t post this earlier–I could not get online today from work.

My favorite joke: There was a young preacher who was asked to give a graveside service for one of his parishioners. The grave was in a family cemetary out in the country. Despite his map, the preacher soon was lost and finally found the place about an hour too late. Only 2 workmen were at the grave. The vault cover had already been placed on the grave and the workmen were taking a break. The preacher was very upset, but he had promised to give the service, so he got out his bible and proceeded to read over the grave.
As he closed his bible and walked away, he overheard one workman say to the other, “Gee, do you think we ought to tell him he just prayed over a septic tank?”
That’s today’s favorite.

I still do not understand how this type of material is acceptable humor:
"Earlier this week, church members learned that the Miracle Baby, was not really a miracle after all but rather an abomination of human nature. Closer observation of the child revealed that it was infected with
a disgusting disease known as, ‘Downs Syndrome.’ Church Doctor, Jonathan Edwards remarked, “I could have sworn the little beast was Chinese by its slanted eyes and sloping head. I began to suspect that there was something more to it when the child did nothing but smile and eat. It expressed no emotion. There was also a hideous birthmark found between the legs.”
It’s interesting to see the rationalization that this is ok because people with handicaps laugh at themselves at times. I can certainly understand doing so–everyone laughs at their OWN problems. It doesn’t follow that telling jokes about other’s problems is acceptable. If you think it is, then why don’t you tell a fat joke on this board? Didn’t someone already have a little problem with a rather sick comment about something being “as attractive a a fat chick on a beach?” It went over real well, wouldn’t you say? Why not link to a site about Blacks where someone black is portrayed with big lips and eating watermelon and tap-dancing for massa?
My nephew is a down syndrome child. I don’t find this type of humor funny. It is hurtful. My sister and her husband don’t find this funny. Thank God, my nephew is only a little tyke. I doubt he’d find it funny that people like him were written about as “an abomination of human nature”
Maybe you are the ones who don’t understand. You can find lots and lots of things to laugh at that don’t involve hurting other people. You can find lots of ways to poke fun at groups you don’t like (like the baptists) without having to drag in innocent people. You don’t HAVE to use people with disabilities as butts of humor. You chose to. And that says a lot about your character.

24

I work with mentally retarded people. I laugh at some of their antics, I laugh with them, but I don’t laugh at them.

I am pretty politically incorrect, and I do not really think that we have to tiptoe on eggshells about everything, but come on. Poking fun at people who were born with a mental disability? They have no choice in being that way. They can’t even get the joke. If they were mentally able to get the joke, mentally able to come up with a rebuttal, I might feel less offended by this.

I can laugh at some of the unique things that some of the people I care for do, I can even get mad or frustrated with them. (And, I think it’s possible that I might find some jokes to be funny - it would sort of depend on how far they went.) But the “jokes” quoted on this thread made me squirm a little. It just is different when you get to know mentally retarded people, and get to love them. It’s not so funny anymore.

25

Analyses of why humor is, well, humorous always seem like dry bran cereal unaccompanied by milk (or gasoline). But I think that the bottom line on them is, “There but for the grace of God go I.” It’s funny precisely because you can see yourself in that position, if things were a little different.

I’ll tell an “offensive” joke to two categories of people:
[ul][li]people who belong to the group that would be the butt of the joke and whom I know well enough that they’d realize it is shared humor, not a putdown[/li][li]Extremely close friends that share my opinions on the subject of the joke[/ul][/li]
In essence, if I’d offend somebody, I’ll avoid it. Something I failed to do once on this board, with predictable consequences.

Yosemitebabe has it on target. “Laugh with them, not at them.” As I was posting this, a coworker who is trying to lose weight walked by with a snack from the vending machine, held it up, and asked, “Does carrot cake qualify as a vegetable?” with a big smile and a chuckle. I laughed along with her.

I want to share a joke, not terribly funny, but given the source better than a small chuckle. At one point in my life, I was working with a book remainder house which ventured into selling “seconds” of a number of other products. In the case in question, the company had bought a trailerload of promotional balloons that had not met Q.C. at the factory. 20% or so of them were “face” balloons with eye and mouth printed on and nose being a rubber projection that stuck out when inflated, a la some of Slug’s cartoon faces. These were rejects because the eye/mouth print was “off” and in most cases resulted in the “nose” sticking out from the eye.

About two miles down the road from where we lived were a series of car dealerships, including a Ford franchise owned and named after a gentleman named Dick Ide (which I wish I’d remembered for the “funny names” thread in MPSIMS).

Our next-door neighbors had a 13-year-old son who was retarded in the literal sense, developmentally disabled due to congenital problems that had failed to provide adequate oxygen to part of his brain. He was as alert as anyone else, and a whiz at electronic kits, but a very slow learner. He was, as well, a truly nice kid, fun to have around, polite but not obsequious and infectiously happy.

The afternoon I came home from work with some of these balloons in the back seat (perfectly OK; we were welcome to help ourselves to small quantities of things that would only be profitable in bulk sales), Billy came over, saw the balloons, and asked about them. I explained what the problem was and why they were not saleable, and he said, “No problem; you can always sell them to Dick Ide Ford.”

26

So … why does Helen Keller wear tight pants?

27

Humor is one of those things that has been classically very hard to describe or understand. Most people, when asked why they find a particular joke funny, will not have any idea. In fact, analyzing a joke to determine the source of its humor often removes all traces of humor from it.

I personally like a concept that Isaac Asimov advanced in a story once. It dealt with the origin of jokes and how most people don’t know the person who invented the joke. His theory was that humor was invented by some other power as a means of studying the human personality. In some ways, (minus the other power), I think this is true.

The point here is that many things are funny. Many things are offensive. Some things are both. Which of the two categories any given statement falls into varies wildly from person to person.

It is wise to attempt to avoid telling jokes to people when you think they might find it offensive. This is called being polite.

However, to deny to yourself or others when you find a particular joke funny (even an offensive one) is to ignore a portion of your personality and to fail to understand yourself and your motives. And just because you don’t find a joke funny doesn’t mean that someone else doesn’t.

I find many jokes funny that others find offensive. I find many jokes funny that I also find offensive. But this is not because I am bigoted against the butt of the joke in any way. Finding humor in things is one way of making them less serious and enabling us to deal with them. This is a healthy response.

Sorry to have rambled, but I get very irritated when people feel the need to impose their outlook on life upon other people. Assigning motives to me based on my sense of humor is as inappropriate as stereotyping me because of my appearance. If you find something, especially online, inappropriate, don’t read it again.

TheDude

28

Thanks for the laugh, Polycarp.

“Assigning motives to me based on my sense of humor is as inappropriate as stereotyping me because of my appearance. If you find something, especially online, inappropriate, don’t read it again.”

Two questions based on this quote:
I can understand the idea that you just ignore what’s online–I don’t always agree with that because some companies who sell web sites will not allow hate sites and they have a right to sell space to who they want and government agencies have an obligation to not promote illegal acts or discrimination. In those cases you can complain.
But, is it ok to post a hate site on a message board like this? If I decided to post a website for the KKK in order to promote their sick beliefs, would that be ok? Should you just not read it? Would that mean “The Straight Dope” in essense found that appropriate? If a business allowed that type of material to be posted it would be harassment, what about a private message board open to the public?

Question 2: If you don’t want to be judged on your actions, in this case posting cruel parodies, what should we evaluate you on? If not your posts, then how? The only way anyone on this board can get any type of perception of you as an individual is by what you post. Do we assume, regardless of what you post, that you are a wonderful human being full of human kindness? I’m willing to start with that–but your actions ultimately show your character. “Even a child is known by his doings”

29

Jokes are not about making fun of people; they are about finding humor in the situations that people find themselves in. The attempt to make human beings as a whole follow one persons outlook on life will only breed hate and discontent. You can please some men all the time, all men some of the time, but never will you please all men all of the time.

Your complaint, Smilingjaws, is an attempt to make everyone fall in line with you beliefs so you will never be offended again. But I’m sure there’s a preacher somewhere in the world that was late for a funeral service and would be offended at your joke.

30

Where do people get the idea that they have a right to go through life without being offended?

TT

“Believe those who seek the truth.
Doubt those who find it.” --Andre Gide

31

Well I personally don’t think it’s my right to go through life without being offended, but I will admit that I go through life with the expectation of being treated fairly and courteously. Some people take more trouble than others to respect other people’s feelings, other people are more blunt.

I’ve found that in general courtesy and politeness is a better approach than rudeness.

As far as humour, I personally think the best humour is self-deprecating. When you make fun of yourself, it shows a sense of perspective and the ability of critical thought.

Making fun of others can make you seem close-minded or bigoted.

La franchise ne consiste pas à dire tout ce que l’on pense, mais à penser tout ce que l’on dit.
H. de Livry

32

smilingjaws:

My personal feeling is that I have no problem with you posting a hate site on a board like this. I might go there and if I’m offended, I don’t have to go back. But the Chicago Reader might have some problems with that. They may choose to allow it, or they may choose to say that it is not in accord with their policies. That’s their choice as a privately run site.

To the latter part of this, I couldn’t agree more. The only way to judge a person is by his actions. On a message board such as this, this is more difficult as we have no means to observe people’s actions. We have to develop some opinion based upon their words. This is much trickier and more likely to be inaccurate. But you misinterpreted my quote.

I do not say at any point that you should not judge me based on my actions. I say here that you should not blindly assume what I believe based on what I find funny. You should not assume that I am racist or a sexist if I find a racist or sexist joke funny.

Many of my male and female friends alike enjoy sexist jokes and think they’re quite funny (in fact, my biggest source for male chauvinist jokes is a female friend of mine). This does not mean that they are sexist in any way.

The original point of my post is that I often times laugh at jokes that are offensive. I know these jokes are cruel, but I laugh anyway. To deny the fact that I laugh at them is deluding myself and others. The only possible motive I could have for stifling my laughter is the negative reaction of people around me, who blindly assume that because I laugh at a particular joke, I must be a bad person. Humor is not necessarily meant to be cruel, even if it may seem so to certain people.

TheDude

33

This line really did hurt when I read it. Especially since: a.) I was behind Byzantine 100% in her anti-fat bashing thread so I was completely caught off guard when she made a “joke” at someone else’s expense, and b.) I AM one of “Jerry’s fucking kids” (and I don’t even particularly care for rap music).

This has been gnawing at me for a few days now. I guess I’m not good at letting things go. I’m glad this thread was started, because I’ve considered starting one in the BBQ Pit, or hi-jacking the rap thread, or at least adding a new post to my own “Things not to say to the disabled” thread," something along the lines of, Some disabled people aren’t fond of children with muscular dystrophy being made the butt of jokes, especially when the jokers don’t know what they’re talking about when they use the term “Jerry’s Kids.”

Am I being overly sensitive?

“I hope life isn’t a big joke, because I don’t get it,” Jack Handy

The Kat House
Join the FSH Webring

34

Gr8Kat-
If you’re oversensitive, then I am too! Obviously I thought it was thoughtless at best and just plain mean at worst.

Sorry, Dude–If someone tells a mean joke, then I do consider him to be hostile. If someone says a racist word, then I do consider him to be a racist. I know the current philosophy is that everyone is good, noble, kind, etc. inside regardless of how he behaves, acts, speaks, but your words AND actions reflect who you are. We CHOSE our words. Sometimes you do laugh at something inappropriate–or say something inappropriate and that really doesn’t really reflect our values. Then, that impression can be altered by your actions. A person who knows that is wrong will check themselves or apologise for laughing or just make a statement–I know it’s wrong but it just caught me off guard. If you repeat the joke then you’ve said that not only do you enjoy the joke but you endorse the humor. I want you to notice I did not protest any kind of sexual joke–I protested a joke based on denigration of a group of people. I guess some sexual humor is that way, but most of it is just kind of vulgar. Face it–sexual jokes are telling jokes about ourselves–we’re all sexual beings. We’re joking at our own expense which is entirely different from cruel and mean jokes based on denigrating a small group of people based on their difference from the “norm”

35

I better clarify my thoughts on sexual humor. Although I don’t find this type of humor to be mean most of the time–it is vulgar and IS offensive in a work situation. I have a email list of friends to whom I send jokes. I’m pretty sure most of the people on the list would not consider sex jokes bad but I still don’t send out really explicit jokes. When I do send out a joke that is sexual in any way or has a dirty word then I always attach a warning and “Mom’s rating” based on what my mother would say if she heard this joke. I think one of the differences between mild sexual humor (Little Johnny jokes, mailman is the father jokes, differences between women & men) and derisive, degrading humor is that 99% of people recognise that sexual humor is offensive to some people and generally, they’ll restrict their use of it to situations where people won’t be offended and it isn’t based on belittling or degrading people because of physical disability or race–just on laughing at ourselves for our silliness. Some of it though–like Chester the Molester cartoons–would make me seriously question someone’s character. I don’t find pedophilia amusing and I don’t think much of people who do.
But, I’ll tell you in a minute that if you told a filthy joke in front of my mother or my daughter, I’d think you were a crude, obnoxious boor of bad character and manners to be so disrespectful and I’d think twice before I’d associate with you. I’d think the same thing if you told it as part of a presentation or posted it in a public place. If you used that type of humor to intimidate or embarass a coworker, then I think you ought to be fired or penalized just like the law states.

36

I don’t know if you misunderstood my point about sexist humor or not, but I was referring to jokes like “Top n reasons beer is better than men/women” and others, not sexual based humor.

Oftentimes I will do this, but oftentimes I am doing this just to be polite. Because when I go back and think about it, it’s still funny. It may also still be offensive to some people, which is the reason I apologize, but it’s still funny. And it’s not funny just because it’s meant to be hurtful. I’m not laughing at the people, I’m laughing at the joke.

I agree with you on the matter of telling of jokes, though. One should always be sensitive to the nature of one’s audience before opening one’s mouth. This is called common sense.

Yes, I understand it is difficult to judge one’s true motives and thoughts. But I would think it’s possible to not necessarily assume that because you find a joke offensive, that I am evil for finding it funny.

I hope you have learned as much from this debate as I have, but we’re approaching the point of diminishing returns. Truth of the matter is that all people judge others on the basis of insufficient evidence. The shame is that too often people are not willing to change that judgement after the first few pieces of data come in.

TheDude

37

Yet your son or father can hear them all they want, right? Sheesh. My sainted mother loves to hear a good joke, and I wouldn’t think of depriving her of a gem just to spare her delicate feminine sensibilities.

Your family may be one in which the womenfolk don’t let such horrible things fall on their virgin ears, but in mine, we chicks have spunk, and we don’t let something so silly as a vulgar joke cause us to fall in a swoon.

38

Sorry kid, you got the wrong family. The reason I don’t tell these jokes to my mother and daughter is because they are devout Christians who would be very offended. I’m a woman–so much for your little stereotyping.

39

I KNOW you’re a woman, smilingjaws. Women can be sexist too. I can see why you have no sense of humor, though, coming from that family. I never knew why being a “devout Christian” meant that you can’t laugh. My aunt is a devout Christian and loves a good dirty joke.

40

Thanks to everyone who responded to my questions. Although some of us do not agree, I appreciate your interest and attention.

Since Ms. Drain Bead has been so eloquent–I’d like to let her words of kindness, tolerance, and compassion be my final post on this topic:

posted 11-06-1999 12:54 PM
If you feel like rejecting me because I’m not a size 8, that says much more about your shortcomings than it does about mine.

posted 11-12-1999 03:43 PM
I can’t speak for everyone else here, but: I like gays, as long as they’re nice (which, btw, is my criteria for liking just about anyone). I am straight, but considered volunteering for Stonewall simply because I think the world would benefit from a bit more tolerance.
I am an atheist, but I believe that religion has a perfectly good and acceptable place in the world, and that people should practice their beliefs any way they see fit, as long as they try not to use their beliefs to espouse bigotry.

I don’t drive, but I LOVE old people. My first job was in a “home,” waiting tables. I gained a great deal of respect for the elderly during that summer. So I guess I’m not a bigot.
Keep trying to justify your own bigotry by trying to attack us, though. I think that’s called “ad hominem.”

And, finally, from the paragon of tolerance herself …

Your family may be one in which the womenfolk don’t let such horrible things fall on their virgin ears, but in mine, we chicks have spunk, and we don’t let something so silly as a vulgar joke cause us to fall in a swoon.

I KNOW you’re a woman, smilingjaws. Women can be sexist too. I can see why you have no sense of humor, though, coming from that family. I never knew why being a “devout Christian” meant that you can’t laugh. My aunt is a devout Christian and loves a good dirty joke