Why is Unreal Tournament so bad???

[Badtz_Maru]

*Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly *
**

One reason UT has so many devoted fans is that it’s engine caters to Voodoo users - it’s DirectX support is very spotty, and for that reason it runs like shit on people with GeForce

Are you sure? My computer is a Athlon 700, 256 megs RAM, with a GeForce II 32-MB card, and UT and Quake 3 both run like wet dreams (though not at the same time).

Of course, our family computer is a 1.1 Ghrtz Athlon with 256 megs RAM, and only a 16-MB TNT2 card, and the 3D support for UT is shitty. And Quake 3 ain’t too hot either. So maybe both games need a dynamite graphics card.

**

Well, I have the original GeForce, not the GeForce 2, so your results may vary. 8^)

But seriously, on my system I had to reduce the detail and resolution on UT more than for any other 3D game I own for good framerates. Nearly everything I can play with full detail and all features turned on - FAKK 2 is a minor exception in that I had to turn off some kind of vertex lighting because it was causing graphic glitches, but once I figured that out I could play it at 1280x1024 and full detail very smoothly.

[rushtopher]

Starbury said…
And isn’t John Carmack the one responsible for Daikatana?

And the answer is…nope. John ROMERO is responsible for Daikatana. After working on Doom with Carmack, he got a huge head and decided he was a brilliant game designer. He creates Daikatana, wastes a ton of money, and plays a part in good game developers at Looking Glass going out of business indirectly. He is now working on some other piece of shit.

and
SPOOFE:

Actually, it speaks more along the lines of how Quake’s engine is BETTER… so much better that very few computers would be able to handle it if it were used for the sheer size and scope that Deus Ex required.

Seriously, think about this for a second. An engine is BETTER because it does LESS? The Quake III engine looks better, there is no question, but because of that the Quake III AI is not nearly the quality of UT. Dues Ex needed the UT engine because it has advanced AI, although I understand Dues Ex can still have choppy framerates.

Quake III is an enferior game in my opinion to UT. As engines they are probably equal, Quake III is definitely prettier, but it handles smaller worlds and can be a hog. At some point somebody will make a game that enhances the engine to the point where the AI surpasses that of UT (Half-Life 2 anyone). And so on and so forth. Play what you like, I could care less.

I have a dated 3D card, and got laid of from my job where I had a good one, so playing UT now isn’t really an option for me.

[Badtz_Maru]

Why is everyone saying Quake III can’t handle large levels? Have any of you played FAKK 2? The levels on that game get extremely huge. The upcoming Medal of Honor: Allied Assault uses the Quake III engine as well, and has large outdoor levels.

[SPOOFE]

Seriously, think about this for a second. An engine is BETTER because it does LESS?

The Quake 3 engine DOESN’T do less. It does much MORE. That’s the point. So much more than most machines can’t handle it completely.

The Quake III engine looks better, there is no question, but because of that the Quake III AI is not nearly the quality of UT.

The AI and the Graphics Engine are two different things. The AI can be completely reworked without altering the graphics in the slightest. Please, that’s like comparing gameplay and sound… apples and oranges, my friend, apples and oranges.

Quake III is definitely prettier, but it handles smaller worlds and can be a hog.

The levels are smaller not because they HAVE to be - in any engine, you can program in a virtual world the size of Earth - they’re smaller because, realistically, you CAN’T have a massive level with the Quake 3 engine and not lose performance on lower-end machines. As the average computer becomes better and stronger, you’ll see larger and larger levels, as my colleague Badtz pointed out.

At some point somebody will make a game that enhances the engine to the point where the AI surpasses that of UT

If you think about it, the UT AI (or the Q3 AI, for that matter) isn’t that sophisticated. Bot programs have been in existence since the old days of Quake 1, and probably before. The only difference has been the sheer SCOPE of the program - bots know that it’s not always beneficial to be constantly jumping, for instance - but the UT AI is hardly “exceptional”. There are many little things, things which a normal human opponent would know not to do even without playing the game. For example, load up UT with the level “Hall of the Giants” (I referenced this once already). There’s a huge, sloping arch that spans almost the entire level… and the bots will run down the exact center of this arch, every single time. It’s so predictable, in fact, that whenever I run over a long, one-direction pathway, I keep my gun trained on the exact center of that path (when playing bots, of course).

UT’s AI, while not poor, is hardly amazing. If anything, it’s just slightly better than Quake 3’s… and I suspect that may have something to do with how UT’s level’s are of simpler design.

[absoul]

… apples and oranges, my friend, apples and oranges.

… I think this sums up the entire UT vs. Q3 argument.
(notice how I put UT first.)

The paths bots take in both UT and Q3 are configurable via waypoints. These are setup by the level designer.

[Sofa_King]

I tell you this: UT plus Matrox G400 equals frag bait, even with a DSL line, which I once and soon again shall have.

Hey, this is the Pit, right? Fuck you, Matrox. Great products with shitty support don’t warrant repeat customers. I’m not coming back until you come up with something that accurately simulates Jenna Jameson’s lips on my cock–and swallows.

The disparity in framerates shows to me that UT’s engine just can’t push the polygons like Carmack The Magician can. I can still clean up a room full of college students playing CTF in QIII, as long as I keep the resolution low and the BAC high.

Deus Ex? Can’t play it. I’d like to blame Matrox and their shitty driver support, but two years later, when they finally figured out how to program their crap card to be the equivalent of a TNT-2 long after they both were obsolete, Deus Ex still nosedives beyond the point of playability. I’m pushing 900 MHz on an overclocked Celeron II, so we’re not talking about the shittiest of processors, just the second-most shitty. Benchmarks prove to me that the system is card-limited down to 800x600 in QIII; I don’t even bother with testing on the UT engine because it only likes Voodoos.

To quote Gorf, “bad move, Space Cadet.”

But my Voodoo-sportin’ V-3 5500 friends fuckin’ love UT, and I’ve seen why. It’s like night and day. Glide was a pretty cool system, maybe better than OpenGL for 3D games, and a damned sight better than anything I’ve seen from D3D.

Doom III looks to be the death of the UT engine, assuming it gets out on time and as advertised.

[rushtopher]

Man I wish I could use that quote thing, if somebody could let me know how to do it, I’d appreciate it.

You are right there is not question that the Quake III engine is prettier graphically. Curved surfaces, reflections etc. My problem is with the low frame rates on some high end machines. I played the demo for Heavy Metal FAKK and at times it was nearly unplayable on my mid-range system. What good are those fancy graphics if I can’t play. I could make a raytracing graphics engine, but you’d have to wait 2 minutes per frame. That’s no good.

In the past Quake has done a better job of running on low end systems, this one didn’t quite do it. Anyway, it’s personal preference, if you’ve got the hardware to run it more power to you SPOOFE. I never said it was a bad game, I prefer UT because it is more of a game.

As for the AI issue. The reason that I brought up AI is that UT’s admittedly inferior graphics allow for better AI, because there are more clock cycles available. It’s true that the bots waypoints are plotted by the level designer. That’s not the issue. Bot’s in UT do a good job of using cover, varying their attack patterns, and moving side to side on attacks as opposed to just charging you. It’s not revolutionary, I just feel its better. If you are a multiplayer jock though, this doesn’t make much a difference.

If I was picking an engine for a game to be released in 2 years, I pick Quake, no questions. For today, I want UT because I can make a better overall experience, rather than just a prettier one.

Is this really appropriate for the pit? I feel like I should say FUCK YOU SPOOFE or something, but I’m not mad. Bummer.

[AETBOND417]

*Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly *
**The only difference has been the sheer SCOPE of the program - bots know that it’s not always beneficial to be constantly jumping, for instance - but the UT AI is hardly “exceptional”. There are many little things, things which a normal human opponent would know not to do even without playing the game. For example, load up UT with the level “Hall of the Giants” (I referenced this once already). There’s a huge, sloping arch that spans almost the entire level… and the bots will run down the exact center of this arch, every single time. It’s so predictable, in fact, that whenever I run over a long, one-direction pathway, I keep my gun trained on the exact center of that path (when playing bots, of course).
**

On what difficulty setting? As early as “experienced”, the bots begin performing actions like those of humans in many servers. Crank the setting to “Godlike” and they’ll shock combo your arse in seconds.

[SPOOFE]

On what difficulty setting? As early as “experienced”, the bots begin performing actions like those of humans in many servers. Crank the setting to “Godlike” and they’ll shock combo your arse in seconds.

Well, on any difficulty level, the Bots do things that humans can’t (their aim is usually flawless, for instance), and kind of “even things out”, the designers put other deficiencies into the AI. On lower difficulty levels, for example, the Bots run slower than a real-life opponent.

Even on Godlike, they’re still predictable… but so fast and perfect with their aim that there’s almost no way to get by them.

The point is, the AI for either game is excellent, but still artificial, and noticably so… you really need to play against a human opponent (preferably one like me… :D… and when we get our cable modem, E-mail me and we’ll set up a game, in Q3 or UT).

[Badtz_Maru]

I don’t really think the newest version of Quake is more beyond the capabilities of modern systems than older ones. I remember when the first Quake came out, most of my friends couldn’t play it at all on their computers and chose Duke Nukem over it because they still had 486s. I think this was before the Pentium IIs came out, and if you think Quake runs smooth on a 166 w/16 megs of RAM and a 1st generation 3D card (which would be a fairly high-end machine at the time) you wouldn’t have much of a problem with the way Quake III runs on an equivelant modern machine (an 800 w/128 megs and a GeForce).

I think they had to exclude low-end machines with their new engine to give it longevity. I bet there will still be new games coming out using a version of the Quake III engine three years from now.

[Evnglion]

[quote]
Originally Posted by Starbury
**And isn’t John Carmack the one responsible for Daikatana? **

No way man, that was John Romero

Q3 is suprior anyway…the way the actual action in UT feels kinda bothers me. Also, look at all the killer Q3 tournements across the country. They rock.

[Doubleclick]

I remember when Unreal was a rumor like ‘Pray’ (What ever happend to that game?) and Quake I came out.

I tried Q1, and being a Doom fan, I was impressed. But one thing struck a cord with me…Everything in the damn game was brown!

(I am still convinced the reason they brough Q1 out was not to show the superior graphics, it was to see how many shades of brown they could make.)

The sounds in Q1 also didn’t seem to sit right with me…they seemed to aim for a “Heavy Metal” sound rather than ‘realistc’.

Multi-playing in Q1 was stupid…Here’s how you play:
RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN GRAB THE ROCKET LAUNCHER RUN RUN RUN RUN TRY TO HOLD ONTO THE ROCKET LAUNCHER RUN RUN…(Yawn)

---

Time passes…

Q2 comes out and wasn’t really that much different. They added new models and the colour ‘blue’. (An MP was the same as Q1)

But this time, I played Unreal and was blown away…quite a veriety of colour and level design.

---

More Time passes…

UT was announced, I almost peed myself with excitement.

Q3 was announced at around the ‘same time’…I saw the screen shots and thought…“They finally did it! This looks GREAT!” But then I saw it…Brown…or more to the point…dark earth-tones…"

---

A little more time pases

Then the Q3 demo came out…ok…so the whole game wasn’t earth-tones…there were other colours. Like green. (Remember,blue was introduced in Q2)

It was fun…but it turned out to be like MP in Q1 and Q2. The levels are cramped and designed in a way that you have to ‘KEEP MOVING’…Screw that…

---

Just a little more time

UT comes out…I fall in love right away…colourful, excellent level veriety. (Industrial, Space crafts, futuristic buildings, urban city scapes, ancient castles…etc.)

Weapons that are not linear is one of the greatest features… IE: The Weapon on Key #9 is not always the most powerful or most effective…I’ve played games on line and won the match by just using an Enforcer, or played on levels where the rocket launcher is suicide…

(I love playing agains people that use the “Quake” Tactics…IE: Run and grab the rocket launcher…pretty useless for open levels in UT. There is nothing like taking a guy out after you’ve side steped his rocket.)

The sad thing is though, is that people are making Quake levels into UT levels…sad…

As I see it, UT beats Q3 hands down…give me a skilled weapons fight…not a running rocket match…

Flame away

[Doubleclick]

*Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly *
**'Sides, what’s cheesier than UT’s sniper rifle? **

A “Quaker” playing UT who doesn’t know enough to keep his head down when there is a sniper in the area. (While running to get his rocket launcher, or course )

<Click>
HEAD SHOT

(Half the fun of the SR is taking out the person who has it. )

[Whack-a-Mole]

Caveat: BOTH Quake III and Unreal Tournament are good games.

Thas said…

Unreal Tournament is definitely the better of the two. If you’re jacked up on Moutain Dew and Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs to achieve an N[sup]th[/sup] degree twitch factor then Quake III is probably for you.

For everyone else there is Unreal Tournament. Better weapons, better AI and better game modes.

Quake III has better graphics but personally I couln’t care less about curved surfaces in the middle of a frag fest. I’m all for eye candy but gamepley will win out everytime (some of the most fun games I’ve ever played were on the Intellivision). Unreal’s graphics are good enough.

All of that said I still have a blast playing Tribes and I’m drooling for Tribes 2 which is due out in two weeks! You may not be able to play deathmatch in Tribes but everything else about that game makes it a blast. If you haven’t tried it I highly recommend giving it a spin.

Doubleclick wrote:
I love playing agains people that use the “Quake” Tactics…IE: Run and grab the rocket launcher…pretty useless for open levels in UT. There is nothing like taking a guy out after you’ve side steped his rocket.

Do you know that the rocket launcher in UT can be made to lock on making ‘sidestepping’ more difficut?

Other than that I agree. I was playing a few nights ago and throughly cheesing off some newbie. He perpetually grabbed the rocket launcher and (after I fragged him a few times) came gunning solely for. It was just too much fun to sidestep a rocket and get a point-blank headshot with a sniper rifle (not my usual tactic but that’s what seemed to happen several times nontheless). Another time I danced around 3 rocket shots from him (he never learned to aim at my feet) while I loaded up on a multiple rocket launch and gave him a face full of four rockets (he didn’t dodge). I’ve never gotten very good a multiple rocket launches but this was one time that made the feature worth it!

rushtopher
To do the quote thing do the following:

{quote}This text will appear in quote format.{/quote}

Replace the {} with (if I used regular brackets you wouldn’t see what I was doing).

[Doubleclick]

*Originally posted by Jeff_42 *
**
Do you know that the rocket launcher in UT can be made to lock on making ‘sidestepping’ more difficut?

Good point.

You can also load 5 rockets and lock on them and have them fire in a tight ball.

But in open areas (Like the street in Urban Arena2 or Bathroom2,) while more effective than a single shot, still pretty easy to get away from.

The “lock” feature makes the launcher fun in those ‘semi-open’ levels. (Where dodging is not quite so easy.)

Most of the guys I play with avoid the rocket launcher unless:
1.) It is the only weapon they have picked up at that time.(And are not in a cramped level)
2.) they wan’t to go for a ‘style shot’.

My beef with the RL in Quake is that it seems to be the most sought after weapon. Making the game silly and pointless.

[Doubleclick]

Sorry Jeff_42…forgot to turn the bold off…

Maybe we should organize a SDUT match = )

[Whack-a-Mole]

FTR I’m in no way a top notch UT person. Pretty good but there always seems to be one or two guys on every map that seem near indestructible. I’m good enough to nail them once in awhile (which I think pisses them off to no end) but it usually requires me dying 5 times to their one time.

Still, I’m good enough to be fun for most semi-skilled to skilled players.

If you’re up for it let me know and we’ll give it a shot.

BTW: Ever try gamevoice? You can buy a product from Microsoft for $50 or so or you can use it for free with some limitations (this assumes you have the necessary hardware already…the ‘free’ version limits you to four simultaneous speakers). Anyway…it makes these games a lot of fun since you can heckle your fellow players without taking your hands off the keyboard (or it helps if your playing teams).

Anyone else interested?

[Doubleclick]

*Originally posted by Jeff_42 *
If you’re up for it let me know and we’ll give it a shot.

Sounds good! (My ICQ number is in my profile.)

*Originally posted by Jeff_42 *
BTW: Ever try gamevoice? You can buy a product from Microsoft for $50 or so or you can use it for free with some limitations (this assumes you have the necessary hardware already…the ‘free’ version limits you to four simultaneous speakers). Anyway…it makes these games a lot of fun since you can heckle your fellow players without taking your hands off the keyboard (or it helps if your playing teams).

I own the GV unit. =) Damned nice! We tend to use BattleCom (www.shadowfactor.com) It is the software that GV is based on.

We use it over GV because there are no limitations on the amount of users…and its free.

[Doubleclick]

Should we move this over to General Questions to see if anyone else is interested?

[Lexicon]

Some really great thoughts have been expressed so far on UT vs. Q3.

The one thing that surprises me is that no one has really mentioned Q3F.

I played Unreal Tourney all the time, and loved it. It truly is such a better game than Q3, for so many reasons. Then they installed Quake 3 Fortress at work and Whu-huh-hoa Nelly! That game fuckin’ kicks ass.

You get to play with a bunch of your buddies, on separate teams, you each have separate roles to fulfill and abilities that allow you to do so.

The engineer sets up Auto-Sentries to defend the flag, and recon and medics go and steal the flag.

Depending on the level, Grenadiers go and get the flag, and Minigunners stay to defend.

And, since everyone liked being a sniper in UT, they added the sniper class.

Awesome.

Like so many other things in this life, it got old. It’s pretty cool, but it’s not all that anymore. People have figured out all the cool spots to stick autosentries, and how to blow them up even so.
People have figured out all the quirks to every level and how to use them.
We get nothing but stalemate anymore. sigh
Enter: Unreal Fortress.

Talk about a bad ass game. Talk about everything you ever wanted in a Team Shooter.

You get all the best elements: Strategy, scalability, cool weapons, great mutators, awesome maps, everything.

If you have yet to play Unreal Fortress, I urge you to do so. You’ll never doubt again. Think about it: Take the UT GotY edition’s chaos mutator, the one where you fight with broadswords and crossbows, and cross it with an assault level on an ancient castle map. It’s a game to die for.

Until something better comes out, Unreal Fortress can be declared the best of the best, ever.
And oh yeah, since Deus Ex was mentioned a few times, I have to bring up Oni. This game rules. Strategy, a chick who kicks ass, great moves, easy to control, challenging but not impossible, great story, and oh yeah one more thing:
The most bad-ass fuckin’ graphics I’ve ever bloody seen!

Stick that in your BFG and smoke it.
PS. I’m down for any multi-player action. Y’all can e-mail me if you want to let me play, too.
Also, I’ve heard some about GV, and would like to know more. Can you point me at a link?
Thanks.