Why is wrestling seen in a bad way?

OK guys, the same people who deplore wrestling, I am almost certain, watch gymnastics, featuring girls undergoing arrested development being forced to undergo routines that causes them to have frequent fractures because of their small frames. They have to maintain the frames by binging and purging and suffering from anorexia.

Of course there is pathos and rivalries in pro wrestling, involving clashed egos. Haven’t you heard of the Bret Hart incident in Montreal? He still have not lived it down since. Mick Foley’s character was the ultimate in pathos. I believe that his presence was more a factor than Stone Cold or the Rock in the increase popularity of WWF.

rjrung, what do you mean that they have to be real about it? What you want, somebody to be choked to death? Someone getting a fractured skull from a real piledriver? Eminem-style pistol-whipping? Don’t you understand that a lot of they are showing is commentary on the current state of society today? This is a society where we root for the bad guys (Steve Austin is the ultimate heel, but he is one of the most popular and known wrestlers), while booing the “good guys” who try to instill virtues (such as Kurt Angle, a real Olympic champion–explain his prominent presence in pro-wrestling?). You claim to deplore pro-wrestling, but your words reflect that you have more bloodlust than wrestling fans you feebly attempt to insult.

They are using the “fakeness” to free themselves to expand storylines and angles. What they are doing is an art. Actors can re-do lines that they messed up. Wrestlers cannot re-do moves. Although there is a script, many of them improvise. Let’s see you favorite actors do that night after night.

Bullshit.

That’s like saying every pro wrasslin’ fan wears his hair mullet-style, has a momma with four or fewer teeth, has a rusty pickup on cinderblocks in the front yard, and listens exclusively to Motorhead.

Your arguement, to sum it up is “Foley does the outrageous things because thats the only way he’ll be liked”.

He makes the choices to do those things. If you read his book (Have A Nice Day), you’ll see he does these things as well as putting on a good match. There are plenty of great matches he is in, where he doesn’t take those risks. If he can go a little bit further, and wants to go a little bit further, then why not?

His extreme nature brings him a lot of fans, so he sells merchandise, and gets a cut of that. He makes a lot of money out of it, and so do the WWF. The fans go home happy, so whats your problem with it?

Bullcockey, bullcockey, bullcockey, bullcockey.

I’m not going to reply quote for quote, because even I can’t deal with this much bullcockey.

What, pray tell, is so all fired sacred about “real” sports. To attack wrestling because it is mocks a bunch of guys who get paid astronomical amounts of money to toss a ball around is the most ludicrous, assinine, fake, stupid, ugly, and just plain bullcockey argument I have ever had the displeasure of hearing. It takes the very notion of what we should value as a society, locks it in a Figure Four, and calls it “fatboy”. I respect the Rock a bazillion and a half more times than any “real” athlete, because he’s not simply paid for being good at as useless a task as throwing a ball through a hoop. He’s paid to convincingly (as possible) pretend like he’s hurting someone and being hurt without causing real injury. He’s paid to stir crowds. He’s paid to layeth the (admittedly fake) smacketh down on candy asses so we can all live vicariously through him. It’s called catharsis, look it up. And, unlike the random world of “real” sports, you go in knowing that someone has a plan. I don’t watch wrestling in spite of its fakeness, I watch it precisely because of its fakeness.

Wrestlers aren’t actors. Again, bullcocky. Actors are, by definition, people who make a living pretending to be someone they’re not. Since wrestling is fake, wrestlers are pretending to be something they’re not (real competitors), and making a living at it. Hence, they are actors. They’re not versatile actors, I admit, they’re all the ultimate in typecasting. They take one role and (if it’s successful) hold on to it for the rest of their career. But the best of them are excrutiatingly good at what they do. No one will ever capture the “angry redneck bent on destruction” archetype quite like Steve Austin. And while Triple H probably wouldn’t make a good Hamlet, he makes an incredible Triple H; a character who sometimes seems to have nearly as many nuances.

Wrestling is to blame when children idolize wrestlers and do stupid things. Bullcockey. If your child is idolizing the Undertaker and chokeslamming all his little schoolyard chums, then maybe its time to find him some alternative rolemodels. My heroes are Chuang Tzu, Shel Silverstien, Billy Corgan, and Sean Reiley (in about that order). Try one of them. To quote the sarcastic comment of one of the above (You figure out which. Hint: It isn’t Chuang Tzu.), “all children [should be] kept from influences in fire-retardant pillow cases until they’re eighteen.” Kids need to learn that it’s a big wide world out there. It’s not all Big Bird, and it’s not all the Rock.

Wrestling sucks because all the wrestlers are unsympathetic badasses. Not quite bullcocky, but at least bullco. That’s what made Mick Foley so durned special, he was just a fat guy not trying to be cool yet still hanging with the tough SOBs. But, you have to understand, the basic precept of pro graps (as it stands in 2001), is that the WWF is an extremely violent place. In order to survive, you have to be a little mean. In order to thrive, you have to be one mean bastard. But the best of them at least find their own internal morality and try to stick with it, despite the hardships. Steve Austin will never sell out, despite the fact that it would make his career so much easier. In a world as cutthroat as the one he exists in, this is enough to make him a hero; despite all the other questionable stuff he’s done to survive. He may not always win sympathy, but he always wins respect.

Wrestling glorifies violence and degrades women. Yep. It is therefore evil and should not be watched. Back to the bullcockey. Pretty much all of my coworkers are women. I love all of them, and would jump in front of a car for them, even for the ugly ones. Despite all the stupid things we do as a species, my heart sometimes swells to bursting with love for the human race, as a whole, and as individual parts. I’m continually amazed at how every person I’ve ever spoken with for any length of time has had a unique insight on life and the nature of the universe. On the other hand, there’s a dark little spot on my heart that begs to see Jeff Hardy jump off of high places and risk his life to hurt Edge, just because he hates him that damn much. Some immature adolescent living in my brainstem thanks whatever creator this reality has that a nice girl with big gonzas like Trish Stratus is willing to humiliate herself on a weekly basis in order to help alleviate my insecurities about the opposite sex. Something basic and evil in my soul screams bloody murder when Triple H stands nose to nose with Steve Austin, reads off the laundry list of offenses, assaults, and borderline attempted homicides he’s comitted against the Rattlesnake; then begs Stone Cold to hit him. Maybe I just need therepy. But this is cheaper and more fun. And sometimes I wonder if we as a society aren’t doing ourselves more harm than good when we try to squash that sinister little voice, instead of giving it a harmless outlet like pro wrestling. No, on second thought, I’m sure of it. Every self righteous, holier than though, crusader for morality/political correctness/the children/whatever needs to sit down and watch the Undertaker throw Mankind off of a cage a few times, then maybe they’ll have let off a little of the steam they insist on venting on my poor little pseudosport.

So, to conclude, bullcocky.

Bullcocky.

So playing sports is useless, but pretending to hurt people is a valuable real-world skill?

Personally, I find wrestling annoying. How can you sit there for two hours listening to people scream at the top of their lungs incessantly and not get a headache? If I had a choice I’d rather listen to a cat in heat.

You are thinking of a heavy metal concert. Where’s the two hours of screaming in wrestling? I’ve never heard it…
Maybe the odd minute or two, but nothing substantial.

BrokenInHalf - Bravo! Bravo! Exactly why we (husband, wife, and 16 year old son) watch it! It’s funny. The storylines are (sometimes) surprising. Hell, the audience’s signs are funny. It’s entertainment, folks, not Shakespeare. I don’t always like the storylines, and the ones that are really offensive to me usually die a speedy death. Vince McMahon responds to what the audience wants. And most people like the T&A! And the pseudo-violence. I think really young kids shouldn’t watch it, because they won’t understand the “fakeness”. 11- and 12-year-olds should be supervised by their parents anyway, because kids can be extremely violent without ever watching WWF wrestling. Remember junior high? Pro wrestling doesn’t encourage kids (or adults) to be violent any more than “action” movies like Terminator or Gladiator.

Do you smell what The Rock is cookin’?

Winning a world title in wrestling generally signifies that a wrestler has reached the top of the ladder in terms of popularity, drawing power, and wrestling ability (yes, they do pay attention to that.) Either that, or the promoter thinks that they’re close enough to that level that they deserve a chance to get a title run for a while.

Any promoter that ignores crowd reactions and just gives titles to people he personally likes is asking for trouble, so the writers don’t have all that much to do with it. Unless they work for WCW, in which case you can pretty much count on the wrestlers with all the power backstage getting extended runs with the titles. See also: every Hulk Hogan title reign since 1997, since that was the last time the crowd reactions he got could justify his position in the company.

So, being a world champion in wrestling does hold quite a bit of importance. It’s less important for the other titles, although holding a secondary title like the WCW US title or the WWF Intercontinental title usually means that a wrestler is just on the brink of becoming a main eventer.

Pro wrestling is not something young children should watch. Other than that, I have no problem with it.

I’m not a huge fan myself, although I used to be. It can be good mindless fun, just like most of the movies made nowadays. It certainly isn’t any worse for children than most movies made nowadays.

Some of the moves pro wrestlers perform are very difficult. No, not Olympic-level super-ultra-double-flip-spin-kick-whirl-twirl sorta difficult, but pretty darned difficult. Certainly, the sweat and exertion and occassionally pain they go through is not fake.

I’ve had the chance to stand in a pro wrestling ring and practice a few moves. I admit I’m not athletic, but I was surprised at how hard it can be just to fall correctly (i.e. without hurting yourself, but making it look like it hurt).

Of course, sometimes the hurt is real. My brother (“Griz” from AWO, a local pro wrestling outfit; check out http://www.awowrestling.com ) has fractured an arm, gotten glass shards in his scalp, nearly gotten a concussion, and has recieved more bruises, cuts, and scrapes that you could imagine.

I have a lot of respect for the wrestlers, for the most part.

Damn, I knew I should have elaborated more on the first paragraph. My point is, that baseball requires one talent: Athleticism. Pro Wrestling requires: Athleticism, Creativity, and Charisma. No, professional wrestling requires no more “useful” skills than baseball. But, then again, neither does painting a picture. But who do you think is more valuable to our cultural heritage: Vincent Van Gogh, or Babe Ruth? And no, Rocky Mavia isn’t Vincent Van Gogh, but he’s certainly closer to being Vincent Van Gogh than Babe Ruth is.

Secondly, I know how to hit a baseball. I know how to catch a football. I know how to shoot a basketball through a hoop. I never watch baseball, football, or basketball. But I know these things because they are inherent (and ridiculously overvalued) aspects of our culture. I learned to play these games in school, from my parents, from my childhood friends. I watch wrestling for as many as five hours a week. I still, however, cannot perform even the most basic wrestling moves, and would be scared shitless to try without experienced supervision. If Micheal Jordon wants to be a professional basketball player, all he has to do is be good at basketball. Even if he never makes the pro’s, he still gets a college education (probably at a reduced price), and isn’t really out any for his investment in the game. If Chris Benoit wants to be a pro wrestler, he has to find a special school, pay for training, work independent shows for little (and sometimes no) pay, and spend at least a few years honing his craft. His odds of getting into the WWF/WCW are little better (if not worse) than MJ’s odds of getting into the NBA. And if he gets injured or just plain turns out not to be good enough, he’s royally screwed. So, furthermore, the level of dedication is higher. Which, again, helps earn old Broken’s respect.

Alright, Brokeninhalf. Wanna share some Steveweisers (straight from Canada) and watch Smackdown with me? A big welcome to SDMB.

so OrcaChow, I gather that you don’t watch gymnastics. What sports do you watch?

You want loud, go to an ECW card. You will hear the most rabid fans in the world. Louder than the Who, they even drown out the heat machines (those speakers used specifically to echo cheers so as make the arena seem louder than it really is.)

Most wrestlers are told to get a college education before they even step into the ring professionally. I have seen time and time again guys in other sports declaring pro status after 2 or three years of college, or even straight out of high school. They are talented, but are immature in development, and for the most part not ready to handle the responsibilities and problems of being sudden millionaires. No one succeeded straight out fo HS as well as Moses Malone. And don’t tell me about Kobe Bryant; he is way immature. When new wrestlers arrive at the scene, they come with a plan of success and maintaining it, having graduated with a college degree.

OK–I’m jumping into this without much knowledge and I admit it. All I ever knew about pro wrestling, in fact, I know just by talking to one friend of mine. As it so happens, though, this friend of mine (best man at my wedding, in fact) is a ring announcer for World Xtreme Wrestling, an independent circuit run out of Hazleton, PA.

WXW is closely linked with the “Wild Samoan” training center, which apparently is the only one approved by the WWF. That training center is more than your average gym, it’s like an acting school and command center combined with one of the best gyms in the US. The average wrestler who passes through there trains for a year or more, learning moves and tricks. That person learns something akin to a skill or craft, and this training is important–the moves that look easy on TV are actually difficult and dangerous.

Sure wrestling’s fake–as my friend says, “People who say wrestling’s fake don’t know how fake it is.” That doesn’t mean it’s not an activity which requires skill and strength. (To be sure, steroids have been a problem, but as far as can be figured out the WXW is a clean circuit and the training center emphasises this.) Personally I don’t like pro wrestling (fortunately my friend is OK with this :)). Still, I can’t see why pro wrestling gets such a bad rep. It’s cheesy, badly acted and home to some of the worst hairstyles seen on TV. Yeah, but you could say the same thing about the soap operas my Mum watches. The WWF and WCW are just soap operas for guys, with a lot more broken furniture and probably the same amount of drugs.

Oh hell yeah, Capacitor. I almost when to Smackdown this week in me native Chi-town. Effin’ work. Hey, I thought this thread had fallen off?

My point about the college think is that wrestling isn’t a school-supported extra curricular, much less a provider of scholarships. You gotta do it on your own time and money.

Yeah, ECW fans are insane, I always love the mob mentality. Shame they’re not on TNN anymore.

I agree with all you points except that he will not be remembered for the great matches he was in, he will be remembered as the guy who fell off a tall cage, unless you’re a major Mick Foley fan (which it appears that you are :stuck_out_tongue: )

Pro football, baseball occasionally, freestyle or collegiate wrestling when I can find it. Olympic sports: wrestling (more freestyle than Greco-Roman), track & field, swimming, judo, Tae Kwon Do, boxing. Speed-skating and hockey in the winter Olympics.

I tend to dismiss sports in which scores are excessively subjective and guided by “artistic merit.” Synchronized swimming: a joke. When an ice-skater can be downgraded because of her smile or her outfit, it’s not a sport, it’s a fashion show. Pretty much the same for gymnastics, though a good friend of mine is an NCAA judge.

Wrestling - Made for a man, but cool enough for a woman! Women like it, too, Duke. Where else can you see all that beefcake?

My second post ever! Woohoo!

I, too, used to have that elitist “wrestling is for the Unwashed Masses” attitude. Then I really watched WWF wrestling due to my girlfriend’s teenage son and his interest in it. I even attended a couple of live WWF performances. Now I love it. Generally, I despise sports for the reasons another poster mentioned - overpaid pretty-boys thinking they’re all that 'cause they can toss a ball through a hoop or something. Wrestling is entertainment, and I like to be entertained! To be honest, I DO have a bit of a problem with the way the WWF generally relegates women to the role of busty-airhead role, but that seems to be slowly changing with the likes of Molly Holly, Lita (oh, Lita, how I do love thee!), and most notably, Chyna. I like to see women performing on equal footing with male wrestlers. I can only hope the WWF continues in this direction.