[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by OrcaChow *
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If you wanna argue… You + Me at Pay Per View 
Good point. But you have to keep in mind that gladiator battles and the like were actual genocidal massacres fueled by hatred and persecution with the intention of exterminating an unwanted community from Roman society. The only time someone has actually died in the ring during a pro wrestling match (and yes, I was watching) was a total accident and a horrible tragedy that I’ll probably remember for the rest of my life.
For those of you who tend to think of wrestling as “fake” or “invalid” as a sport: Have any of you watched some of the behind-the-scenes documentaries such as the recent movie “Behind the Mat”? Do you realize how many wrestlers are injured, some very seriously, during their matches every night? I’ve seen necks broken, elbows dislocated, concussions, deep lascerations, various broken bones…and that was just Mick Foley’s infamous “Hell in a Cell” Match :D.
Anyway, Pro Wrestling is not what I would call a sport as much as it is “athletic entertainment”. Tell me o’ thou dissenters…what do you think of boxing? IMO, boxing is a much more brutal and genuinely violent sport. Yet it is considered “legitimate” yet pro wrestling is not. Why is that? I’d much rather be in a ring with a guy who’s pretending to want to kill me than with one who actually wants to “rip my heart out and eat my children”.
Pardon me if I am mistaken, but doesn’t pro-wrestling strive to be seen “in a bad way?” I confess that I have never seen more than a few minutes of any match, but based on that, and on the promotions I have seen, the “sport entertainment” seems to work hard at promoting itself as a bad-boy alternative to more refined fare. Personally, I suspect that it is no more harmful than most of what is on T.V. If I could get “LuchaLibre” in my broadcast area, I would watch that.
I can’t even see the point of the highschool and olympic versions.
They all appeal to the brute in people, and I wish we weren’t so brutish in general.
Thankfully we no longer indulge in bullfights and cockfights in this country, at least legally.
And with that, you have just uninvited yourself to my 4th of July “cookout and backyard fun” extravoganza.
It is fake, it is poor acting, it is not a sport, it is not entertainment, it does not have athletes it has steroidal freaks, it belittles women, it is devoid of redeming values, it is a crock of duck crap. I would watch The Brady Bunch reruns before I would watch this swile.
Hmm, where to start…
First off, saying that wrestling is fake isn’t a valid argument, because it doesn’t pretend to be anything but. It’s the suspension of disbelief that keeps fans watching it, as is the case with any TV show or movie.
Let me repeat that, for those who don’t seem to get it: pretty much EVERYONE who watches wrestling knows it’s fake.
Poor acting…hmm, I guess that’s why Duane “The Rock” Johnson is now getting $5 million per film role, then? There are good actors and bad actors in the wrestling business, and the best ones are very good at what they do. For example, when The Rock appeared on Saturday Night Live, he clearly outclassed everyone on the show in terms of comedic timing, and…well, just being plain funny.
Saying wrestlers aren’t athletes is incredibly ignorant, as anyone who watched a wrestling show for five minutes could tell that these are all great athletes. Or are you saying that just anyone could go an hour in an Ironman match like Triple H and The Rock did at the Judgment Day PPV?
Belittles women? Tell that to Chyna, who competes on an even level with the men and has won three major titles doing so. If that’s not a message of empowerment, I don’t know what is. Other women including Lita and Molly Holly also compete with the male wrestlers on a regular basis, and are treated more or less equally on TV.
I watch wrestling because when properly done, it can be incredibly entertaining…hell, sometimes the storylines are even well written. It’s not a sport, and it doesn’t pretend to be, but it can be a hell of a lot of fun to watch. I don’t expect Shakespeare from it or anything, but I do think your opinions on it weren’t exactly informed.
And while I’m on a roll, I might as well deal with someone else’s opinion:
At one time, professional wrestling WAS a real sport. It just slowly evolved into what it is today, and I wouldn’t be surprised if boxing follows the same path. And at the risk of repeating myself…come on, everyone knows it’s fake. Why, then, would pro wrestling organizations scramble for a legitimacy they lost way back in the 1940s? (That’s when newspapers began reporting the results of matches before they happened, and wrestling effectively disappeared from the sports pages.)
Also, they don’t sign up former college and Olympic wrestlers to lend themselves legitimacy. The main reason they sign them up because they’re already well schooled in the fundamentals. That’s why Kurt Angle was able to get into the WWF so soon, because he already knew the basic stuff and was able to make the transition from wrestling school to the real thing fairly quickly. And considering he’s now the WWF World Heavyweight Champion, I think he’s done pretty well for himself.
Of course, I guess you’d consider it less pathetic and tragic if he were still doing what he was just a couple of years ago, which was endorsing ostrich meat and desperately trying to find a sportscasting job in Pittsburgh. Somehow, I think he prefers soaking in the boos of 20,000 fans per night.
I’ve got mixed feelings about boxing because (at least in the pros) it’s the only major sport in which the goal is essentially to do actual damage to one’s opponent.
Why is boxing viewed as more legitimate? With some of the chicanery going on in the myriad pro boxing councils, sometimes it’s not. But more often than not, it’s got a leg up on pro wrasslin’ because it’s generally accepted that boxing matches aren’t scripted and the outcomes aren’t preordained.
I don’t recall ever doing a Mongolian triple-flip nut-buster off the turnbuckle in college. Never threw many elbows to a throat, either.
The fundamentals of real wrestling that are applicable to pro wrasslin’ are so few as to be readily taught in those “schools” where kids want to be the next Rock.
Notoriety translates into big bucks.
Notoriety does not equal acting talent.
Fletch was half right. Contrary to his opinion, they are good athletes. But they’re also steroid freaks. They’re very talented, chemically-overloaded stuntmen in a very sham activity.
Yes, I have seen the documentaries. Yes, I know there are many injuries.
Getting injured while following a script does not make the activity any less scripted, any less of a sham. Hollywood stuntmen frequently get hurt while riding horses and dressed up as cowboys. That fact doesn’t make them real cowboys, it just makes them banged-up actors.
Re: Gladiatorial games, actually most fights were not to the death. Just wanted to address the misconception that the games were intended to remove unwanted people from the population. True, they were used for that sometimes, but primarily it was just entertainment.
I’m not into wrestling, but sometimes I find myself watching anyway, just because it’s funny - and one time I went to a match with some friends, and it’s amazing how being there in person will change you - I was standing up and cheering and booing with the rest of the people, I really got into it (same thing happened when I went to Medieval Times, even though those fights are even more obviously scripted). Yes, as entertainment it’s pretty much on the same level as Jerry Springer - but you know what, sometimes Jerry Springer can be highly entertaining! I like laughing at stupid people!
If you admit that it’s all fake, why does it matter who won which titles or championships? That just means the writers decided it was his/her time to win.
The difference between boxing and wrestling is that everyone knows that boxing is fixed.
Wrestling is live soap opera, done in front of a lively audience. In addition to the athletic prowess they show when they stage a fight, the wrestlers have to make up more soliliquies than an actor has to memorize in a Shakespearean play, or in an afternoon soap opera, soliliquies that reflects the characters they play. This is done to rev up the audience. Some of those are scripted, but many of these interviews are known to have been done on the spot. Then they have to think of ways to cut promos that insult the wrestler they have rivalries with. They have to do these things day after day after day, in different cities no less. Then add a zany group of non-wrestlers such as the McMahon family, who are most willing to sacriice their own bodies to promote their product that they own.
Yes, a lot of pro wrestling is show. That is precisely the point. If they do any of those moves for real, we have a lot more dead wrestlers. So they have to trust each other while they throw, punch to the shoulder, kick each other on the ground with an upraised heel, and so on. Unlike actors who flub lines, if wrestlers mess up, they usually don’t get second chances.
No, it shows how pathetic some will go to entertain people. (The video he linked was of wrestler Mankind falling off a 15 foot high steel fenced cage.) He does not deserve to even be called “sports entertainer” or wrestler or whatever the hell they call themselves now. He knew he couldn’t do the moves most of the other wrestlers did, so he resorted to the cheap way to get a response from the audience, that is, by cutting himself on anything that had a sharp edge, take multiple chair shots and go through table after table. I’m so glad he finally retired out of the profession so he wouldn’t die in the ring.
I’m a casual wrestling fan. If there’s nothing on, I’ll watch wrestling. Yes, there are some parts are so fake, I want to flip the channel, but there’s some parts that are good writing and good “acting” (I’m sorry, doing flips and suplexes and running around the ring doesn’t automatically get you compared to the best athletes in the world IMO). Overall, it’s a mixed bag : sometimes I’m disgusted and sometimes I’m having a good time.
Let’s see, initially you say;
“First off, saying that wrestling is fake isn’t a valid argument, because it doesn’t pretend to be anything but.”
All right, it’s fake and has no merit as a competitive sport. You just said it.
But shortly thereafter you state, “…Chyna, who competes on an even level with the men and has won three major titles doing so.”
“Competes”? You have already admitted that this is not a sport but scripted “sports entertainment”. You cannot have it both ways. There is absolutely no merit to any “competition” in the WWF because there is no element of chance for any of the “contestants”. Your argument reeks Mister Armageddon.
Then you have the nerve to insult all honest women athletes by saying;
“If that’s not a message of empowerment, I don’t know what is.”
I don’t know what isn’t a message of empowerment if your preceding line isn’t one. That a women should think herself to present a role model by taking advantage of a fixed game to ostensibly demonstrate gender equality is specious at best and outright fraud in reality. Again, you are way off base in your “logic”.
Again you pull up lame. Olympic style wrestling is the only activity that qualifies as a sport in this discussion. You have already admitted that WWF is pure fakery. How on this green earth are you able to say something like, “…the transition from wrestling school to the real thing…”. The only real thing was his prior work. WWF (as it is broadcast) is not, has never been and will never be any sort of sport whatsoever in any way shape or form.
You continue to insult all real athletes with your claims that WWF is anything but a sham, period.
Come back when you get over your complete lack of consistency.
Zenster, you’re really getting worked up there, eh buddy?
I’m going to address some of these points. If Mister A. has differing opinions from mine, then let him chime in.
All these quotes come from you, Zenster.
You’re really missing the point here. REALLY. I don’t think anyone with even half a brain sits around going “Well, I’ve scouted Triple H’s workout routine, and I read about his sparring. He’s working on a new move, and there is just NO WAY The Rock will be able to beat that!” You keep saying that “it’s not a sport! it’s fake!” I’m over here nodding my head in agreement, and hoping you’ll notice this time. In one (run-on) sentence, Zenster here it is: I do not watch wrestling because I am curious to see who is a better athlete or who can “really beat” who, I watch it because it is humorous and fun.
Maybe “competes” wasn’t the best choice of words here, but I think that Mr. A. still has a valid point. You keep claiming that all wrestling does is belittle women (which, admittedly, there are some women who provide nothing but T&A–I don’t think it is all that great, but it also isn’t so offensive that to me I wouldn’t watch. I guess it just depends on how worked up over that you want to get. ) Mr. A’s point was that in contrast to your argument that your argument that all the WWF does is belittle women, They also SCRIPT AND WRITE STORYLINES which have women on an even plane with women and sometimes even kicking men’s asses. Chyna, (a woman) held the second highest belt for some time this past year. (I reiterate, I know and nearly everyone else watching knows this is not happening in real life. – Just in case you wanted to pull out the “fake” argument here again). Care to explain how that belittles women?
I’m beginning to wonder if you had a son that ran away to join the WWF. I’ll say it, yet again. NO ONE WATCHING OR PERFORMING IS CLAIMING THIS IS SPORT. You are. Only you, and a few scattered drooling cretins who think that the whole thing is real (probably less than 2% of the wrestling audience.) Again, maybe Mr. A’s word choice was not exactly what he wanted, but his point still stands. Whether you want to admit it or not, There is a hell of a lot of athleticism in the WWF (please note once again, I didn’t say “sport”). But for you to pooh-pooh the idea that these people are real athletes is absurd. If they aren’t athletes, then obviously you don’t need to be athletic ability to do this, right? Which would mean that you could do that sort of thing with no trouble at all. Is that what you are trying to say?
Anyway, I’m not here to blindly defend everything that happens in the WWF. I readily admit parts of it are really stupid. But parts of it are funny and entertaining as well. However, you jumping up and down screaming “But it’s fake!! It’s fake!!” is completely missing the point.
Cock fighting is legal in Louisiana. My uncle raises fighting cocks!
::enters in a flurry of crotch-chops and vulgarity::
If you don’t like it, I’ve got two words for ya’!
::stands in middle of ring amidst pyro-technic mania, waiting for the crowd’s answer::
Yeah, wrestling is fake. Yeah, it glorifies violence and is degrading to women. Yeah, it is far from being the most wholesome show on TV.
But like the violent exploitive popular shows of the past (roller-derby used to be huge) it’s simply entertainment for the masses. As soon as it loses popularity (which I feel is close at hand) it will dry up and we’ll be on to the next big thing.
BTW, in grad school, one of our favorite things to do was to go to a local bar, watch WCW Nitro (it was much better than RAW is WAR at the time), get loopy on PBR (Pabst Blue Ribbon, for the whos at home), and watch the violence and sex served up in a 2 hour chunk.
Now, I’m far to busy to watch wrestling, or much of anything else for that matter. When I get a minute and turn it on, I’m just bored. Much the way a fan of soap opera does after being away for a while.
My SO is very into Pro wrestling (he’s also, I’d like to say, a complex and intelligent individual who reads Proust and hand nursed our baby kitten when she was sick. OK?)
He says he likes it for the athletiscm- the “I can’t believe he pulled of such an incredible feat”- kind of like gymnastics but thankfully without that ugly competative aspect that can arise when 12 year old girls are involved.
I think it’s pretty silly to say their not athletes, or that compairing them “belittles” real athletes. They’re not engaged in a competive sport. Is competition the ONLY legitimate measure of athletic activity?
That and the psychodrama- like Artaud’s Theater of Cruelty?
This part I have a harder time with, as I’d have to say as theater, or even psychodrama, I’ve always found it pretty boring. Mankind was the only character I thought had any real pathos.
I don’t really want to defend pro-wrestling. Actually I can’t stand it and if they banned it my SO would have to pay attention to ME on Monday nights- but still,I don’t think it’s any more destructive than most other forms of mind-numbing entertainment out there.
I suppose my argument would reek if I was claiming what you seem to think I’m claiming. No, Chyna doesn’t actually “compete” in the sense that athletes in actual sports compete, but what I meant is that she’s allowed to kick guy’s asses on a regular basis in the ring. I hold no illusions about what would happen to her in a shoot.
Exactly how am I off base? The fact that Chyna and several other female wrestlers are allowed to compete (yes, in a booked competition, I know) on an even basis with the men pretty much proves that women aren’t degraded as much in wrestling as Fletch seems to think. Which, um, was the whole point of me posting that response in the first place. And yes, it is a message of empowerment, because it shows the girls watching that they can do anything that boys can. Yeah, it’s just written that way, but so what?
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Zenster
Again you pull up lame. Olympic style wrestling is the only activity that qualifies as a sport in this discussion. You have already admitted that WWF is pure fakery. How on this green earth are you able to say something like, “…the transition from wrestling school to the real thing…”. The only real thing was his prior work. WWF (as it is broadcast) is not, has never been and will never be any sort of sport whatsoever in any way shape or form.
[QUOTE]
You think I’m just making this stuff up, Zenster? I think you seriously underestimate what it takes to become a professional wrestler, and what it takes to finally work your way up to the Big 2. When starting out, wrestlers have to learn the basic holds, counters, basic bump taking, and so forth. Since Kurt Angle could already wrestle circles around…well, pretty much anyone IRL when he showed up at the WWF’s training facilities in Memphis, he could skip all the basic stuff and immediately move on to the more advanced things he needed to learn. His name value got him noticed by the WWF, yeah, but it was his innate talent that got him moved up so quickly. Other guys I could name that had extensive amateur experience include Ric Flair, The Iron Sheik (wrestled in the Olympics for Iran, and won a silver medal), “Dr. Death” Steve Williams (once wrestled Bruce Baumgartner in college), and the late Owen Hart, who Kurt Angle has been favorably compared to. Nowhere did I claim that pro wrestling was real, but experience in amateur wrestling will inevitably help people that want to eventually make it up to the WWF or WCW.
The fact that pro wrestlers compete in predetermined matches night after night doesn’t mean they’re not great athletes, and many of them are. That’s all I’ve been saying here, although apparently you prefer twisting my words around to suit your own predetermined opinions.
Maybe the reason why (pro) wrestling is “seen in a bad way” is its combination of artificiality and its bad-boy attitude.
To wit: I turn on the TV to WWF or WCW or whatever, and I see a bunch of muscular guys bouncing around the ring. I know it’s fake, okay, but that fakeness is attached to a “bad boy” attitude that permeates everything about pro wrestling – the exploitation of women, the trash-talkin’ in-yer-face behavior, the win-by-all-means fights, etcetera etcetera etcetera.
So what do I end up with? A bunch of nasty guys trying to out-nasty each other, but it’s all fake. Sincere nastiness is something most folks can be intimidated by (take a stereotypical Hell’s Angel in a biker bar for example). Artificial virtue is also not a problem for us (Luke Skywalker in Star Wars, 'nuff said). But pro wrestling only offers “artificial nastiness,” which ends up appearing to its detractors as simply embarassing.
(As a counterexample, look at Mr. T. Yeah, he’s fake as all-get-out, but at least he’s cultivated an image of being virtuous for the underdog and nice to kids. Nobody’s going to give him any grief as a result.)
If pro wrestling wants to be nasty, then it has to be real – no staged outcomes or overblown “acting.” Conversely, if it wants to be staged, then it should offer a wider variety of characters than the one-note “bad boyz” muscleguy. Combining the two just doesn’t work – it’s fake and unappealing.
So what we have is an event that is not competition, with folk paid to look and act good(or bad depending on YPOV)
The problem for me is that it masquerades as sport.
This is the problem that many sports fans have.
How can there be any real glory at winning in a play ?
How can there be any pathos in defeats despair ?
It is all manufactured and like some soap opera fans there are plenty who somehow take it all in.
IT IS NOT REAL, THAT’S WHY SO MANY SEE WWF IN A BAD WAY.
Doesn’t matter wether you are a fan or not, that last answers the OP in full.