Concerning, this mailbag column. There are numerous other indicators to the fakeness of wrestling, at least from a technical perspective.
Anybody familiar with breakfalls will note:
a) Many of the throw techniques actually put the receipient in a good breakfall position.
b) That the receipient will do a break fall and then feign injury from the fall.
The tactics and techniques used by professional wrestlers would be extremely ineffective in a real wrestling match. An amateur wrestler would quickly shoot their legs and pin them or choke them out. But as with martial arts in the movies, real wrestling isn’t nearly as exciting as the fake stuff.
Many of the techniques they do have real origins but are done improperly, since if they were done properly you wouldn’t be able to breakfall out of them.
There has been a shift in tide, and now some wrestlers will freely admit that the shows are choreographed, i.e. completely fake. One went on The Tonight Show last year and said as much.
Fake is the wrong word, it is controlled. If it was fake then no one would ever get hurt.
Hogan was on the Tonight Show and Leno asked if it was fake and Hogan said it is not fake but it is controlled.
Everyone can try what Ric Flair says about how it feels to be dropped on the mat. He says to stand straight up in any room of your house with you arms crossed over your chest and fall straight backwards and land flat on your back.
So, that is what I have heard from the professional wrestlers. I have been to 2 live shows and when they chop their opponent across the chest, now that is a real chop. Of course the wrestler’s don’t go all out to intentionally hurt their opponent. How smart would that be? If everyone was there to intentionally hurt each other, then within a short time period, you would have everyone out of wrestling with injuries. Sooner or later another wrestler would put that guy out.
I am not here to change anyone’s mind about it, just to state my point. I watch wrestling and i take it for what it really is. It is entertainment. It may not be for everyone but it is a billion dollar industry, so someone must like it.
Has anyone ever heard what other athletes think of wrestlers? NFL, NBA, MLB players will all say that wrestlers, on average, are the best athletes as far as being in shape. Wrestling is a year round job. Of course they all can take time off, but few of them have a 3 or 4 month off season.
Trivial for somebody who knows how to advanced breakfalls. For somebody who doesn’t it is a completely different matter.
It’s real in that the actually do throw a chop, but a chop across the chest in the manner they do it flawed as a matter of technique. It doesn’t hurt much more than a slap would, especially since they have very heavily muscled chests. The “karate chop” (shuto) is not designed to hit hard parts of the human body (like the chest). The striking area is too big to cause penetrating damage. The shuto is designed primarily to strike soft parts of the body, the classic strike, and probably the most effective being to the collar bone. The shuto is also very effective as a controlling strike, i.e. to the inside of the elbow or wrist, which again are soft.
They are, without any doubt, tremendous atheletes. Their conditioning and skill to do their stunts without injurying each other is impressive, especially as you note, they do it year in and year out. Although they get to practice with each other before an event, when the event comes they only get one “take”. They have to get it right. That takes some skill.
It would take a lot more skill to make it not look fake. The acting is right out of the dudley doright melodrama school of acting, a hallowed and very entertaining tradition. People may get hurt, sure, but they’re not trying to hurt each other.
I don’t Mentock. I used to watch wrestling in the 70’s … whoo boy. Talk about el stink a roo. About a month ago wrestling came on while I was reading a book (“Real Fighting” by Quinn for about the zillionth time, lots of irony there too I know). Okay I admit it … I looked up from time to time to watch a match (it is somewhat entertaining until they start talking). The quality has really improved. If I didn’t know about advanced breakfalls, I don’t think I would recognize them (even without recognizing them it doesn’t take much brain power to figure out that if the moves were real the matches wouldn’t last very long). The punches and kicks are pretty decent. The kicks are a little lame, but compare the punches to punches back in the 70s and WOW what a difference. If they could just keep them from talking …
Well, if you don’t mentock, then I’d like to say that I won’t glitch. But that’s not gonna happen, unfortunately.
I’ll grant you that the moves have improved (relatively), but one aspect hasn’t: the simulated stupor. That, and the look of surprise when their opponent sneaks up on them.
So, you are saying that it doesn’t hurt the wrestler who has been chopped across the chest? I imagine it doesn’t feel too good to have your chest beet red, welted, and chopped until it bleeds. I wonder what it would feel like the Paul Wight, formerly known as the Giant, currently the Big Show, were to give someone an open handed chop or smack across the chest?
Of course they are not out to do penetrating damage.
Obviously, the wrestler knows how to fall and land. Isn’t that like a boxer knowing how to take a punch or a football player taking a tackle?
Another credit to wrestler’s is how many of them will wrestler injured for weeks or months before taking time off to have surgery. Most other athletes jump at the chance to take the lay off and get healthy.
The one question i do have. I am not too familiar with the amateur style or greco-roman wrestling, i have seen it, but it doesn’t interest me. Are they allowed to choke someone in amateur wrestling?
I didn’t say it didn’t hurt, I said it wouldn’t hurt much more than a slap would be. Maybe I should have said a hard slap. The essence of the two attacks is the same. It is a slapping/scraping blow, and yes, it causes a redness to the skin. How long after you have been slapped does the pain subside? It just plain and simple isn’t that big a deal.
Besides, it doesn’t matter. The point is that it implies the fakeness of the sport. The attack is a poor technique. If wrestling matches were real and chops were allowed they would not chop across the chest.
The point is it isn’t quite the same as saying it would be the same for the “people at home” to cross their arms and fall to the floor. The “people at home” mainly don’t know how to breakfall.
Amateur freestyle, no.
Traditional greco-roman, yes. You could also slam (not allowed in freestyle) and strike with the open hand (not allowed in freestyle) . You could not gouge the eyes, or strike/grab the groin.
Modern greco-roman, no not anymore, but some places used to. I don’t know if it was ever allowed in the US. Typically, modern greco-roman allows for SOME slams (you are allowed to pick up and “drop” the opponent, you may not drive the opponent into the ground), but no open (or closed) hand strikes. When chokes were allowed getting a choke position was akin to making the person’s back touch the ground. You didn’t actually choke them out (unlike traditional), but broke when the referee called it a point.
Professional wrestling is much more akin (in rules) to greco-roman wrestling than to freestyle.
Well, obviously you think pro wreslting is fake. Don’t watch it then. I am a fan, i realize it’s not completely real, but it is far from fake.
Even though the wrestler knows how to fall, it still hurts to some degree, shoot i was playing basketball tonight and i got undercut and fell on my butt on the floor and my back to the wall. Glad i watch wrestling and knew to tuck my chin!
Ric Flair is just giving an example what it is like to land on the mat. Usually the wrestler is being body slammed, suplexed, or jumps of the top rope and lands on the mat. He is falling farther and harder than an at home person who is just falling over backwards.
Of course the mat has some give but it is not heavily padded or supported with springs. Usually underneath the mat, there is nothing but plywood and wooden supports. When there is these men ranging from 200 to 500 lbs. jumping around it does look spring loaded.
I don’t, but that doesn’t change the fact that wrestling is scripted (the outcome is predetermined) and the moves are technically flawed to the degree that they wouldn’t hurt all that much. You have stated the moves would so hurt, but you have stated the reasons why. You think that they would hurt is fine, but that’s the myth. That’s exactly what they want you to feel.
I hope you watch wrestling and enjoy it (obviously you do). I think that’s great. But don’t tell me the moves are “real” except in the sense that they actually do them. The techniques are flawed in the manner in which they do them. Unless you can provide solid reasoning as to why they aren’t flawed, well, let’s just say uninformed (I don’t mean this insultingly, but simply that if you don’t know the technicals reasons why they are real or not then you are uninformed) opinion isn’t much for evidence.
Survey says … Bzzt! Sorry, but wrong. I have personally done breakfalls onto concrete (out of the necessity of falling) and suffered not the slightest injury except a scratch on one arm.
Sadly, his example is completely invalid as anybody who knows about breakfalls would tell you. His example is completely self-serving because he knows that if anybody were to actually do it at home, and they didn’t know how to breakfall, they would hurt themselves. He wants to give the impression that it hurts a little, and so gives an example that would hurt a little (it could even hurt alot depending on how exactly you fell).
It’s fake, in that they are scripted, the outcomes pre-determined, and most of the techniques are done sloppily so they do not really injure people. Yes people get hurt. Didn’t a woman get bashed last week on that new wrestling show? But those are accidents in what is a dangerous stunt show. Yes it is dangerous. Jumping out of the ring onto tables, smashing people with chairs, and a lot of the other craziness associated with the show are just that - stunts. I have heard several pro wrestlers complaining that they should be allowed to join in the stunt man union. But none of that changes the fact that it is not a real competition.
I’ll give a comparison. I take karate, and spar in tournaments. We use point sparring rules, which means light contact, first touch is a point. We wear safety gear including face shields, light contact, and at the first point the referees call break and award the point. No sweeps or takedowns are allowed. All of that is done in the name of safety. But it is still a real competition because the outcome is not predecided, points are awarded as they are earned. That’s a real competition. Being safe does not remove the competition, and being dangerous does not mean it is a competition.
Yes, the wrestlers are in great shape (most of them), and yes, many of the techniques they use are based on real moves, and yes, I’m sure some of them even know how to do the techniques correctly (like Jesse Ventura). None of that makes it real.
blackwrangler98:
I don’t know what the distinction is between “not real” and “fake”. Also, you’re being overly defensive here. Nobody had told you not to enjoy the show. This is a comment on the column that asked if it was real, so we’re just replying to that question. If you disagree, fine, but telling us not to watch it is irrelevant. I don’t watch it. I can still answer a question on the topic.
Wrong. The rings are on big springs. I don’t know how thick of padding is used (1 in?), but the platforms are on large springs (I think they use auto springs).
Suffice to say, when Wrestling went “national”, to avoid problems with various state commissions (a’la Nevada boxing commission that said “Iron” Mike Tyson wasn’t a sociopath) the “directors” of Wrestling admitted that the outcomes were “pre-determined”.
If one can fix a boxing match, one can fix a wrestling match. Thus, the various wrestling “federations” (call 'em what you will) who wanted to avoid being investigated by state commissions (for fraud or whatever) openly admitted that the events are predetermined, or, “scripted”.
What I want to know is how they do the folding chair trick… I don’t watch wreslting regularly, but everytime I hit UPN or TNT, there seems to be a match on, and I always manage to catch the point where some guy gets wacked with the folding chair. It “looks” real enough, more than the punches and kicks, so what gives ? Is it a fake chair ? Do they just do “glancing” blows ? (all you self proclaimed “experts” on falling and karate, well hell, isn’t everyone on the internet an expert?)
For the 3rd time now, Flair is saying if you were to fall at home like that, that is how it feels to land on the mat in the ring. What is there to agrue about that?
Thanks for turning everything I say or quote around to your liking.
If you don’t watch it or don’t like it, why do you care if it is scripted out? I can twist that around too and say, Oh well, they do wrestler in Nevada and other states that have a State Athletic Commission. That means when the main event occurs for the championship belt, then it is an actual match w/no predetermined winner. If you watch those matches you can see a difference.
I don’t see how i am getting overly defensive, you two have your opinions on wrestling and i have mine. Should i just sit here and let people who don’t like wrestling have their say and me, who gets something out of it, not say a word?
I am betting this is irrelavent also. If you think it is all fake and the moves don’t hurt, why not just go down to the WCW PowerPlant and sign up to see if you can make it in wreslting? Wrestlers make great money and travel. Sounds like an easy profession to get into. Oh, guess i forgot that these guys have been trained a majority of their life and know the sloppy techniques and how to fake it so they don’t get themselves hurt.
I wonder if Andy Kauffman thought it was fake after Jerry Lawler gave him a powerdriver? Or was that scripted? no.
SAS said:
(all you self proclaimed “experts” on falling and karate, well hell, isn’t everyone on the internet an expert?)
Yeah and everyone is a legend in their own mind as well!
R. Dog said:
Uh… yeah. It was. Kaufman and Lawler had it all worked out.
Did you see footage of where Kauffman got dropped? I will admit that was one of the best piledrivers i have seen. Don’t get me started on Kauffman either.
<< For the 3rd time now, Flair is saying if you were to fall at home like that, that is how it feels to land on the mat in the ring. What is there to agrue about that? >>
OK, there’s nothing to argue about. That’s what he said.
But for the Nth time in return, what he said is distortive or untrue. My son has theatrical training, he can “fall at home like that” and feel nothing. If I were to “fall at home like that”, it would hurt.
The statement you are quoting implies that the same fall hurts the same for everyone. Again, that is simply not true. It’s not “the same fall”, because someone trained in how to fall (stunt men, for instance) takes a different impact than someone who is not so trained.
My guess is that he’s saying: if YOU were to take that fall at home, that’s what it would be like for YOU to fall on the mat. And perhaps if HE were to take that fall at homek, that’s what it would be like for HIM to fall on the mat. But for YOU to take the fall at home is NOT what it’s like for HIM to fall on the mat. Got it?
You want to prove me wrong, they demonstrate YOUR knowledge rather than questioning mine. Do you want me to go and scan my rank certificates and post them? Good grief. If you have some knowledge post it, and the people who read it can decide who sounds like they know what they are talking about. I have been teaching martial arts for the past 17 years. I rely on the fact that whay I know comes through in my posts, because on matters such as this it all comes down to who sounds like they actually know what they talking about (i.e. there aren’t any books you can go to for a compartitive study of breakfalls vs. no breakfalls). I can, and have on many occasions, provided detailed technical information on various technique. Prove me wrong with facts not mere suggestions that “everybody is an expert” and hence I don’t know what I am talking about.
And for the 3rd time, Ric Flair is wrong. If the average person, who doesn’t know how to breakfall were to fall like that at home they would likely hurt themselves; however, for Ric Flair to fall to the mat, because he presumably knows how to breakfall, it doesn’t hurt at all.
I would be a much more meaningful statement coming from somebody whose livlihood and reputation rely on people accepting some level of reality to his “sport entertainment”. Keep in mind, I have nothing to gain or lose, except to fight ignorance, by posting these facts. He does.
Fighting ignorance since 1973 (it’s taking longer than we thought). Has it occured to you that maybe some people like knowing the facts about things?
I have never seen such a match, so I can’t comment on the validity. I’ll take your word for it though since it is obvious to me that you are quite knowledgable on the goings on of wrestling as a fan, just like I know martial technique.
No, but you are supplying your opinion (which is fine by me) as some kind of proof that I am wrong (which is not fine by me). If you want to say “Hey, I think those chops hurt”, no problem. But if you want to say “Hey, you’re wrong, I have seen those chops they hurt. You’re analysis of them is wrong.”, then expect me to defend my knowledge and facts with more facts, in return.
First, I enjoy my jobs as a martial arts instructor and game designer. I have no desire to be a professional wrestler.
Second, it isn’t an easy profession to get into. It takes a lot of training to be able to do what they do. I never said it didn’t take talent, rather I said the exact opposite. They are easily expert stunt men! I couldn’t be a professional wrestler and more than I could a stunt man. But would you say that what a stunt man does is real, or fake? I mean sure a stunt man might really jump off a 20 story building, but it isn’t “real”.
[Note: This message has been edited by CKDextHavn]