Why live poker is still profitable, episode #193

If there wasn’t luck involved, you’d win every one. :wink:

That’s what I tell myself. :smiley:

Desert Dumpster - yep, at the lower stakes I play at I make far, far more money with my big hands just going bet, bet, bet. And fast-playing my monsters. Couple of weeks ago I flopped the nut flush - I had ATdd, flop comes jack-high all diamonds. Big blind bets out, I min-raise, he flats. Turn is an off-suit Q which now puts a straight draw out there. He checks, I bet close to pot - gotta go for gold with my big hands, and there are a ton of hands that will continue to call: smaller flopped flushes, sets, two pair, straights etc, and now he check-raises me, and I’m absolutely salivating, because he’s never ever doing this as a bluff - he has a big hand, maybe even a flopped flush.

What gets the most value? If I just call, there are a lot of rivers that could kill the action. A fourth diamond, for example. The board pairing is bad (and means I definitely won’t get much action unless I’m beat). So I jam over the top for 2x the pot, over £400 more on top.

Villain goes deep, deep deep in to the tank and starts talking. 'you have the Ace of diamonds? You still drawing? I flopped it, you’re still drawing, right? Will you show me if you fold?"

I gave him my usual response (‘I might not even show if you call…’ - i.e., I might turbo-muck to avoid showing my bluff). He finally tank called with the flopped king-high flush - massive cooler, really - and he’s drawing stone-cold dead in a £1,000 pot.

Many, many years ago in a similar situation, I actually showed my Ad to a guy who was tanking whether to call; I of course had the nut flush, but showed the Ad and he called, convinced I was showing the Ad because I wanted him to fold. Most card rooms, you’re not allowed to show cards any more…

That’s what I tell myself. :smiley:

Desert Dumpster - yep, at the lower stakes I play at I make far, far more money with my big hands just going bet, bet, bet. And fast-playing my monsters. Couple of weeks ago I flopped the nut flush - I had ATdd, flop comes jack-high all diamonds. Big blind bets out, I min-raise, he flats. Turn is an off-suit Q which now puts a straight draw out there. He checks, I bet close to pot - gotta go for gold with my big hands, and there are a ton of hands that will continue to call: smaller flopped flushes, sets, two pair, straights etc, and now he check-raises me, and I’m absolutely salivating, because he’s never ever doing this as a bluff - he has a big hand, maybe even a flopped flush.

What gets the most value? If I just call, there are a lot of rivers that could kill the action. A fourth diamond, for example. The board pairing is bad (and means I definitely won’t get much action unless I’m beat). So I jam over the top for 2x the pot, over £400 more on top.

Villain goes deep, deep deep in to the tank and starts talking. 'you have the Ace of diamonds? You still drawing? I flopped it, you’re still drawing, right? Will you show me if I fold?"

I gave him my usual response (‘I might not even show if you call…’ - i.e., I might turbo-muck to avoid showing my bluff). He finally tank called with the flopped king-high flush - massive cooler, really - and he’s drawing stone-cold dead in a £1,000 pot.

Many, many years ago in a similar situation, I actually showed my Ad to a guy who was tanking whether to call; I of course had the nut flush, but showed the Ad and he called, convinced I was showing the Ad because I wanted him to fold. Most card rooms, you’re not allowed to show cards any more…

I was playing Zoom poker on Pokerstars last night, which is certainly different. Anyway, I was in a situation where I had a huge monster on the river and an all-in opportunity on six or seven occasions. I pushed all in four times, and was called every time. On two or three occasions I decided to make a more modest bet, and every time my opponent prompty folded.

It’s only one session, but at lower levels I’m becoming convinced people see all in bets as weakness.

I’ll spare everyone the gory details, but won a massive 1000bb pot last night with AA over KK, when the board ran out AKQA6. (I personally think KK can probably fold the river given the action - I can never have a value hand he beats there).

Set-over-set is mean; running quads over the full house is just rubbing it in…

Talk about a once in a lifetime hand…

What does “tanking whenever to call” mean? I can guess based on context here, but I am wondering if “tanking” has a different meaning in poker?

SFP-“Tanking”=going into deep thought.

Twice in a life-time, I guess - I lost with pocket Aces on an AKK rag rag board to pocket Kings once, but the guy was short-stacked so it wasn’t even that big of a pot. More than being happy at winning the pot, I think he was soul-crushingly disappointed that he only had like 40bb for the hand of his life in a pot where I almost certainly would have shoveled as much money as I possibly could into the pot…hell, I would have gotten up to go to the ATM mid-hand if it was allowed :eek:

In the cold light of day, maybe - but a tough fold to find at the table, particularly when the river card is a blank. I mean, I know sometimes inexperienced players can over-value board cards that superficially improve their hand, but actually don’t relative to what they could be up against (like in this case the Ace on the turn makes a set into a full-house for the KK player, but it doesn’t improve his hand against, say, AQ - in fact it makes things worse for him), but in this case the turn card not only means the KK player no longer has to worry about straights or flushes, it also makes it much less likely someone holds the only pocket cards that can beat him. I suppose it does mean he has to worry about AQ or AK though, so in that respect it’s not the best card for you, since you had him crushed anyway. Glad to hear that didn’t matter at the table!

I’ve posted this before I think, but it’s worth re-telling: I once folded KK pre-flop where the action was an opening raise to 3bb by UTG, re-raise by me for 3 times that, re-raise by the player to my left for a further 3 times that, all-in by the UTG player. I just felt that one of the two had to have AA, and given my position and the fact I covered the all-in player, but the player yet to act covered me, felt I had to fold. I believe the flop came AKJ, the last two were blanks and the player to my left won the pot with his pocket Aces.

Yeah. Is being actually behind the whole way worse or better than being a suck-out victim (i.e. if you’d had A6)?

(Now quad kings on the river over Aces full of kings, that would be mean…!)
And in his (partial) defense, your possible hands that would bet the river were, what, A-A, A-K, A-Q, A-6 [winners]; A-x (except 6), Q-Q, K-Q, maybe J-10 if you snuck in pre-flop, and possibly a flush or bluffing busted-flush draw [losers]? Since A-A and A-K are less likely given the cards already out, there’s a lot more ways for you to have losers than winners; plus A-10 and A-J could have put in money on the flop given the straight and trips draws. Obviously the action might make some possibilities less likely, but adding in the chance you’re bluffing he might have had the odds to make a call and hope for full-over-trips.

A couple of months ago I was playing in a $150 buy in tournament.

I was the button and got dealt QQ and have about 7K in chips. 100/200 Blinds 25 ante

UTG+4* (He had been opening a lot of pots and 2nd in chips at the table) opened the pot for 500

Action Folded to me (Avg Stack) and I 3-bet to 1000.

Big Blind comes over the top and goes all In, has us all covered

UTG +4 Calls All in (without much hesitation)

What should I do? with QQ?

I figure one of them have me beat and I last one to act. I fold FACE UP.

BB has AA
UTG+4 has KK

I call it out LOUD that I am folding. I am sitting in the #1 spot and fold FACE UP towards the Muck, (both BB and UTG+3 are all in). Everyone on my side of the table hears me, including BB and the UTG+4 hears me as well. UTG+1 compliments me on my fold saying she could have never folded QQ there

Cards Run out, Big Blind wins with AA, and Dealer starts raking my chips over to BB. I said WHOA, WHOA, and say that I folded.

After some deliberation with the Floor, and the TABLE and the BB, they agree with me. But they warn me to not fold face up with action to play. I said there was no action left, everyone was ALL IN and I was last to act. And I did say it very loudly that I fold. Loud enough so the guy UTG+4 hears me. across the table.
*11 players at the table.

Do you have a question, or are you just telling us this story? Also, were you playing with real money or was this on-line with fake money?

And can I ask why you folded face up?

Why would you EVER fold face up?

Oh, and another definition, please… What does a 1000bb pot mean?

He had 1000 big blinds. He folded up to show that he folded a huge hand.

The way the story is described it must have been a live game, otherwise no-one could have heard him say “fold”.

Folding face up is much more common in live play than online. It is done for a variety of reasons - in this case, perhaps notfrommensa wished to demonstrate that he was a good player by folding an apparently strong hand in this situation. It could work out well for him if he later goes all-in himself, and someone thinks “well, this guy was tight enough to fold QQ earlier on - he probably has the goods”. In other words, it could induce other players to fold winning hands later in the game when they perhaps shouldn’t.

1000bb does indeed mean 1000 big blinds, but this relates to a previous post , not the story told by notfrommensa because the pot was very unlikely to be 1000bb in his situation (he only held 35bb at the time of the hand). If the big blind is $5, a 1000bb pot would be $5,000. The reason this terminology is used is because it makes it clear what a huge pot that is relative to the situation. A $5,000 pot could be trivial if the big blind is already at $1,000 (say, in a tournament where the chips have nominal rather than cash value).

Thanks, guys.

You are right, the 1000bb wasn’t from notfrommensa’s story. It was from an earlier post, but I just thought it would be easier to ask it all at once.

I’m enjoying this thread, but I am really struggling with a lot of the terminology. The vocabulary is new to me, and it makes it hard for me to understand what is being said, so I thank you all for the patience and explanations.

Oh, and i find it interesting that you are permitted to show your cards during a hand (or one of them anyway), and I also find it interesting that anyone would show what they are holding and folding, although I DO see the advantage after it was explained to me. It would seem that poker is a lot more of a mind game than I realized, always trying to think and outthink your opponents.

Yes My story was a Live game, in a tournament,. And yes, I wanted to show a tight image. and that I 3-bet with a strong hand.

Yesterday I confirmed that a lot of live players are, indeed, pretty bad. Was in a $240 Limit Omaha Hi-Lo tournament and half the people were bluffing. In a limit game. Every hand that they stayed in.

I got a below average amount of A2s, AAs, and suited aces and I still came in 20th out of 58. I only had the nut low once and may not have even ever held the nut high at showdown, but I got a lot of chips from gut-checking the insta-raisers. I should have even raised against them occasionally when I held the 3rd or 4th nut but didn’t.

I went out when I was down to 4500 when BB was 2000. Called when I had AsJJT. Maybe I should have raised but that part of it worked out: 2 people called me but folded when I raised when the flop was 2TJo, and the third had As2K8 so she wouldn’t have folded at any rate, so it built up the pot painlessly and I had trip Jacks. Even if she had been alone if I had raised she still would have had 8 outs on the flop to get a broadway to make 12000 chips on the high in addition to the chances of her getting a runner runner low.

Why yes, the turn was a Queen. I had to call with my remaining 500 even though I was pretty sure she had a broadway, since there was already more than 10000 in the pot. A board pair or a king (for a double broadway) would have saved me there but of course no dice.

That’s bad luck - once she hit the Q she couldn’t get the low, so she was drawing a bit thin there to scoop the pot, and you had every chance of scooping yourself on that board.

I’m very inexperienced at limit games, especially Omaha - is bluffing ever a good strategy here? A semi-bluff I can maybe see, but you’re only going to get away with a pure bluff at a super-tight table. Mind you, super-tight is a reasonable strategy at limit Omaha I think, so there you go.

The other night I had a brat step-child pre-flop while at least half the table was swimming in the wheatfield. When the board Axl Rosed, I knew it was time to call the midwife. Sure enough, One-Eyed Pete caught the hammertoe and I had cowpokes at my elbow. In comes Hitler, sashaying down the waterslide without a quart of buttermilk to his name. So then I jackknifed the ganja, shot the tit and never looked back.

I love it when I can rape the guacamole like that.

mmm