Why people become Homosexual.. the answer

The question of why some people become homosexual is truly up there with the greats. So much emotion, ideology, and idealism is vested in it that it’s almost not even surprising why the self-evident answer has been overlooked. Yet it’s really quite obvious.

Fact is, everyone sees physical, even sexual, beauty in both genders. What separates hetero- from homosexuals is in the mind. Yet at the same time, the processes that shape the mind are far more complicated than “choice.” As much as it’s not exactly a “choice” for someone to be homophobic.
All men are attracted to attractive men. The most popular guys in high school, the ones you thought were the coolest and wanted to be friends with most of all, were attractive. Male movie stars, celebrities, even popular athletes are all handsome. And lest you think the attraction between heterosexual men is purely platonic (which mostly it is), also consider the abundance of big, hard cock in all (ALL) heterosexual porn. Yet my point, in case you’re trying to anticipate what I’ll say, is not that “everyone is bi.”

Sexual orientation is a matter of self-identification. Ie, you’re gay when you consider yourself gay. So what makes people identify themselves that way? There are many reasons. One of the most powerful is homophobia itself. The image of the homophobe who’s actually gay is based on a reality, and caused by a powerful feedback loop on the idea that “straight men don’t see physical beauty in other men.” A homophobe will take this to heart, yet the reality of the above paragraph doesn’t change. The result is a long and soul-shattering process of Freudian-style suppression. The victim looks at some men, realizes that they are attractive, recognizes what is naturally in himself, and then feels a rush of panic because, according to everything he knows, it means he’s gay. He thinks more and more about it, with each thought causing him more and more pain and shame, until finally he comes out and says “I’ve been living a lie!”

Like I said, however, there are many other paths, most of which are much milder. For one, homosexuallity offers a community especially to those who are otherwise socially awkward. The commonality is a sort of glue that makes friendships and relationships easier to enter into (same as a common interest, such as Star Wars, but obviously much more powerfully).

In the mix are also various forms of “common sense” knowledge. That’s my tentative explanation for the link between being effiminate and homosexuality (which I don’t think is direct). People around you expect it of you, and you start to expect it of yourself. Do note that effeminism is not the sole, or even main, reason to provoke kids to call somoene gay (in the sexually-specific sense). Really, various forms of social awkwardness are more effective, which brings back the previous point.

The other major reason is plain convenience and sex. As a given society becomes more open to homosexuality, this reason rises in prominence.

For women the mix of reasons is quite different, but not entirely. The homophobia loop, the most powerful reason for men, is probably non-existant. Community I think is more imoprtant for women than men. As is awkwardness, especially around men (my tentative explanation for the link between butchness and lesbianism).
However, I do not mean to say that homosexuals can just stop being homosexual, any more than a straight person can just become gay. The mind just doesn’t work that way, and not just regarding sexual orientation. The men who were done in the by the homophobia loop are probably especially hard set.
If both genders are naturally sexually attracted to themselves, why is sexual reproduction so resilient? The answer is again in psychology. The fact is that it’s so hard for evolution to rewire the mind to see beauty differently (hell, most of us still think babies of other species are more attractive than our own) that it chose to rewire psychology instead. Homophobia I think was created by evolution to reign in men. Women, who lust less after sex, are steered more subty, eg by desires for a strong husband (or a butch female lover*). On the flipside, women are magnitudes more comfortable admitting other women are attractive, and even to have sexual relations with other women. In porn, it’s in fact easier to hire a girl to touch/kiss a female stranger than to hire her to have sex with a male stranger. The real mechanisms for why men pair up with women are undoubtedly fascinating, rich, and enlightening, but I won’t claim I’ve understood them. Let’s say it’s an area for further research.

*Studies show that homosexual females typically look for butch partners, even though heterosexual females are attracted to men with somewhat feminine features.
Genetics, meanwhile, still play a role. Everyone likes to think that a “genetic link” means there’s a protein somewhere that is a direct cause, but in fact genes work in mysterious, indirect ways. Genes certainly affect awkwardness. They may affect homophobia or a person’s response to the thought patterns of supression and obsession. They may do other things, and be a significant factor. Yet in the broadest strokes, everyone, genetically, is attracted to both genders. “I was born gay” has as much truth in it as “you made a choice.”

So you see, while the headline of this topic implied that I was about to give some crockpot or cliche treatise, I hope I’ve come off as giving a rather original and compelling perspective. I think the fact that the view of nearly every participant in the debate (priests, gays, scientists) is captured yet given new meaning is a testament to how the above is a synthesis that rises out of the bickering of theses and antitheses.

From what I’ve heard, some guys sometimes resort to homosexuality because they’re at sea, in a labor camp, in the army, in prison, or otherwise can’t get access to women, and sometimes your own hand don’t satisfy. Or, just because they can’t get laid tonight.
STUD 1: Hey sugar! How about you and your girlfriend . . .

[girls walk on indifferently]

STUD 2: Hey, sweetie! Need a ride? Me and my friend . . .

[gwoi]

STUD 1: Fuck it, it’s getting late. Let’s go home. [pause] Whose turn is it to wear the teddy?
If that counts.

Which studies are these? I’ve never heard of this before.

I’d also refute that popular/powerful men are attractive. I’d say the double standard (where women are judged more fiercely on their appearance) is still in effect. Look at men like Donald Trump–rich, powerful, famous, unattractive, yet still judging women on their looks.

A lot of actors are attractive, but just as many aren’t necessarily traditionally hot. It’s a lot more acceptable for a man to be overweight, etc. And speaking of heterosexual porn, a lot of male porn stars are ugly. Ron Jeremy anyone?

I’d agree, women are judged more fiercely for their appearance. And not all male stars are “hot.” Yet even the fat ones are merely “tv ugly” (ie, still quite attractive by everyday standards).

If you’re male, and you make a list of all the guys you know who you think are really cool, many of them will be attractive (the others will be funny). For women it works the same way.

I’m no master of citation, but consider this NYTimes article:
She’s So Cool, So Smart, So Beautiful: Must Be a Girl Crush
and a followup letter:
The Man Crush

The article is not a a study, it’s a primary source. Yet I’m pretty sure the link between social standing and physical appearance (and wage and etc, etc) is very well documented.

What’s your thesis statement here? That sexuality is influenced by many factors? That many models of sexual orientation are in some way true? I need help getting to the debate, I seem to have gotten lost.

nameless, if you agree with what I’m saying, then why be rude? There are many people who won’t agree. Beside, my point wasn’t “there are many factors.” That’s actually a cop-out answer. I said “here’s the base principle, and here’s the most important compounding mechansims.” That, instead, is a subtle answer. It’s a great trajedy of English langauge that cop-out answers and subtle answers are hard to tell apart.

As a person who finds nobody and nothing beautiful, yet still is sexually attracted to women (but not to men), I dispute what seems to be the central claim of your thesis. NOT everyone finds both genders attractive.

Well, I’m glad that’s been settled.

Next, would you care to explain to us why cats are so freakin’ weird all the time?

They’re all gender-conflicted. And denial comes naturally to creatures so dignified.

I’m really not trying to be rude–maybe I’m a little snarky, but I promise my intentions are good. I’m just not sure what the debate is. Your OP is long, and covers many topics, and it seems your claim is that you have a unified theory of homosexuality.

I’m going to try and summarize your OP to a few claims to see if this helps me out.

  1. Everyone is attracted to both genders, to some extent. Evidence: pornography contains attractive (sometimes) males, anecdotal evidence that popular males are also attractive.

  2. Homosexual orientation is a cognitive interpretation of this attraction.

  3. Homosexual orientation can be arrived at by several routes. Among these are-- (3a) desire for community, (3b) cognitive reaction to homophobia (for males); or (3c) desire for a masculine/strong partner (?) (for females). (3d) Genes may also be involved. Evidence: anecdotal evidence that homophobic individuals exhibit homosexual orientation/tendencies, uncited studies that find women prefer “butch” partners for same-sex encounters.

Is this a fair summary of your argument? I would disagree with (1), (3a), that (3b) is actually causative of a homosexual identity, and (3c) until specific citations are made.

It sure is :smiley:

I’m confused as to what you mean by “heterosexual porn”. If you mean porn involving a heterosexual pairing, then duh, of course there’s cock, since at least one participant must have one. If you’re talking porn which appeals to heterosexuals, then nonsense, since all-girl or all-guy porn (though there’s less of the latter) certainly exists.

Anyway, I see a problem with your theory; by your own logic, you should not support it. Your theory suggests that people can be confused, not only about sexuality in general, but their own sexuality - to the point that they don’t even recognise their true feelings. If that’s so, then logically you can’t recognise your own feelings or understand those of others, and so your opinion is likely to be flawed. I could be mean and say that as a bisexual, I am more in touch with my true sexuality and those of others, and thus my opinion is more valid than your under your own theory… but that depends on your own sexuality. :wink:

Is it plausible that male homosexuality stems from an entirely different mechanism than lesbianism in women? Or even that different forms of homosexuality (i.e. “sterotypical” homosexual vs. non-sterotypical) stem from different causes?

I also can’t quite figure out what your main thesis is. You claim that

. . . but I can’t determine which statement lays out your base principle. That said, I’ll speak to a couple of our your points, and maybe I’ll manage to land on your primary thesis.

And too much of a good thing is bad for you. It’s a self-defining statement, without any informational content.

However, it’s certainly not true to say that all men are attracted to attractive men. And It’s not true that all men are sexually attracted to attractive men. Which is, I think, a prerequisite to all your further arguments.

No, I’m pretty sure you’re gay when you’re gay, regardless of what you consider yourself.

Then what do you mean to say?

You travel a very circuitous route to end up in a very difficult-to-defend place here. Are you actually saying that homophobia is a cause of homosexuality?

(Much additional nit-picking ensued here, since deleted pre-posting in frustration and fatigue. So I’ll just say. . . )

Like Nameless said. I’ll add that your argument is flawed from the outset. The difficulty is in the underlying assumption explicit in the title of this thread – that people can become homosexual. I think you need to go back to square one and provide support for this statement before we can delve into your unique perspective on the role of sociology and psychology on the formation (and re-formation) of sexual orientation.

I am also confused as to the point of your debate, however several of your comments prompt me to respond:

I doubt that this tautology is really very helpful. WHY does one have a self perception of homosexuality? The people I have met who have identified themselves as homosexual have generally professed a sexual desire for people of the samer sex and a lack of a similar desire for people of the opposite sex. This does not require “self identification,” merely recognizing whch sort of person arouses one sexually. The “identification” is merely a label applied after the fact.

Strong sexual attraction to persons of the same sex.

I doubt that this scenario is all that common. I was sexually attracted to women before I knew that such a thing as homosexuality existed. A homosexual kid growing up in a situation with a level of knowledge (or ignorance) similar to mine would have no homophobia against which to react.

Actually, for an overwhelming majority of homosexuals–perhaps more commonly before the last fifteen to twenty years–there simply is no “community” from which they may seek support at the time that they are first recognizing their orientation. No one is going to seek support from a “community” that they do not know exists (and which may actually not exist if they live in a small town or a tightly knit ethnic or social community in a large town or city). They are certainly not going to make some sort of identification of self based on their failure to join a community that they are unaware exists.

Ok, I guess I didn’t do so well structuring my OP. The “base principle” that I meant is that “men are ‘attracted’ to other men.” The word ‘attracted’ could have a lot of meanings, but I mean, for example, that they’ll think attractive people are cooler, they’ll want to be their friends or hire them for the job and so on. From this seed, men either mature into “becoming comfortable with their sexuality” or that seed gives rise to homosexuality, but only through a circuitous path through their minds. So my OP was about two things, that premise, and those paths.

So don’t expect anything that I said to make sense unless you agree that that seed is in everybody (both male and female). It’s late today, but tomorrow i’ll cite some research to support the obvious and easily supported point that physical appearance has a huge [positive] effect on others’ social reactions. I’ll also cite research on the incidence of homosexual thoughts, although that’s shaky ground and not immediately relevant to my argument (such thoughts aren’t seeds, they’re saplings).

I know how much you guys hate “anecdotal evidence” (although in truth, the pinhole of scientific psychology studies isn’t a great or reliable fountain of information either). P.S. yes, this is anecdotal, but a 100% (literally) correlation between hard core porn and big, hard cock is a piece of evidence that carries more statistical significance than the vast majority of psych studies.

I must have missed the “big, hard cock” in all the hard-core lesbian porn I’ve seen over the years.

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. I’m far from the first to say it, I’m just triyng to explain it.

Take a look at this '96 study published in American Psychology Association’s Journal of Abnormal Psychology:
Is Homophobia Associated With Homosexual Arousal?

Abstract:

Oh, piffle.

I have always recognized that there are good-looking or attractive men, but I have never had any urge to touch one or hold one in my arms in the way that I have wanted to hold or touch women (or girls when I was much, much younger). I really doubt that your value judgment using the verb “mature” would stand up to the most superficial inspection, either.

I am also not at all sure why you seem to be fascinated by the notion of large penes. You do realize, I hope, that pornography existed long before there were films or videos to display any penis of any size, often relying on written text, and that “soft core” porn does not display any gentalia even today.

Even pop psychology ought to be based on something a bit more solid than anything you have presented.

Tocuhe. But where there’s cock, it is big and it is hard. Anyway, this really isn’t what I want to be the main topic of conversation here, lol