Why People Vote for Trump - help!

[Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur]

In all seriousness, I acknowledge that Trump like all politicians has fudged
the truth. Like myself, Trump most likely went along with the Iraq War grudgingly.
911 was still fresh on the minds of the American people, but Colin Powell’s
presentation that WMDs were being manufactured in ice cream trucks seemed
ridiculous. But with the hindsight, Trump attacked the establishment. He let
everyone know that his allegiance was with the American people not the
Republican party. Honestly, I wish the Iraq War wasn’t a mistake if only because
of all the people who lost their lives and were injured because of it. I shudder to
think that people may have died in vain. I could actually see myself supporting
Sanders if only he had the guts to attack the establishment and call for Hillary’s
indictment over her emails. It’s a nuclear option but they built that red button for
a reason.

Liberals and Progressives constantly accuse Republicans of being the lapdogs of
big business. Yet, we see Trump attacking Carrier, Ford and Nabisco. Hillary works
for Wall Street. Obama never shames Apple for not bringing more manufacturing
the USA or that the workers in China live in abysmal conditions. No one need trot out
why Carrier, Ford, and Nabisco made good decisions. There’s a reason why Hillary
isn’t running as Obama’s third term or why Biden didn’t run. There are real problems
with the economy.

See, Trump is not an ideologue. He took a summary of his beliefs and ideas
and they generally fell on the Conservative/ Republican side. He didn’t choose
a side and then adopt their party platform. I’ve always said most people are
conservative; they just don’t know it.

[Mosier]

@Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur

Unlike Trump, Bernie Sanders never really took on the establishment. What sold me on Trump was his condemnation of George Bush and the Iraq war.

The best thing about Trump is that for every issue, he has at least 2 (and usually more) conflicting opinions, so you can simply pick the one you want the most to be true.

[Jackmannii]

@Mosier

The best thing about Trump is that for every issue, he has at least 2 (and usually more) conflicting opinions, so you can simply pick the one you want the most to be true.

He’s the all-you-can-stomach buffet candidate.

[BrainGlutton]

@Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur

See, Trump is not an ideologue.

“Ideologue” is just another name for a person who has put a lot of effort into actually thinking about political issues.

[tomndebb]

@BrainGlutton

“Ideologue” is just another name for a person who has put a lot of effort into actually thinking about political issues.

I have no idea where you got this definition of ideologue, but it has no bearing on the meaning of the word in 20th or 21st century English.

An ideologue is a partisan to a specific set of ideas who may or may not have actually thought about them, but who places those ideas ahead of any other consideration. Ted Cruz is an ideologue.

It is true that Trump is not an ideologue. It has not yet been demonstrated that he actually thinks about any position other than to try to say what he thinks will get the most votes from disaffected people–changing his position when it appears that it will not fly with “his” people. The word that describes Trump is not ideologue, but demagogue.

[msmith537]

@Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur

The Left’s vilification of television personality Mike Rowe Dirty Jobs gives one a true understanding of their mentality. Here is a guy who is simply advocating that some people should go into the trades such as plumbing and mechanical work yet the Progressives treat him as a pariah. I think Leftist elitists have their self-worth so tied into their college educations that they can’t acknowledge those who perform practical endeavors. I also think Leftists have a problem with masculinity and thus embrace the likes of Obama and Sanders who seem a bit effeminate.

I acknowledge them when I need a plumber or a mechanic. But just because they are legitimate professions doesn’t mean I want plumbers and mechanics setting foreign or economic policy.

I mean how do you expect people to take your opinions seriously if instead of basing them off of sound theory, you base them off of which candidate sounds “manliest”? The President can’t “wrassle” his bills through congress.

And they aren’t even consistent. You blame Liberals for jobs moving overseas? Who do you think advocates free trade all the time? Republicans.

[Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur]

@msmith537

I acknowledge them when I need a plumber or a mechanic. But just because they are legitimate professions doesn’t mean I want plumbers and mechanics setting foreign or economic policy.

I mean how do you expect people to take your opinions seriously if instead of basing them off of sound theory, you base them off of which candidate sounds “manliest”? The President can’t “wrassle” his bills through congress.

My point is that Liberals and Progressives are indifferent to the plight of the blue collar. That’s why Hillary so easily said that coal miners were going to lose their jobs. What difference does it make anyways? If a government bureaucrat who does nothing loses her job, Progressives literally sit shiva.

The “manliness” aspect comes in because masculine men (versus pajama boys) desire to create things whether growing crops or manufacturing cars. Pajama Boys don’t like getting their manicures messed up so they write algorithms. The bigger picture is that the society as a whole is becoming feminized. While there are very good aspects to this change, one bad aspect is manufacturing has been devalued.
[/QUOTE]

[Bricker]

I think people that are supporting Trump are doing so in large measure because they feel that he’s a guy that is willing to Tell It Like It Is. Naturally, there’s a bit of cognitive dissonance involved as the world hears that Trump assumed a fake name and pretended to be his own publicist.

But in my opinion, people who support Trump are unmoved by that news, and exultant over his refusal to cave and apologize when he transgresses areas protected by political correctness. They are used to seeing public figures retreat and apologize when sacred cows are upset, and Trump belligerently refused to do so, instead doubling down on his offensive attacks. And I think many people have been thrilled to see this – because I think those same people feel as though political correctness has become a substitute for thinking.

I agree with that general sense: political correctness has run amok. But I am horrified that the guy who has captured the imagination of the nation as Mr. Tell It Like It Is is in fact a blowhard political neophyte who substitutes bluster for competence and is successful at it because his supportive audience lacks the skill and wit to distinguish these modes.

[Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur]

@msmith537

And they aren’t even consistent. You blame Liberals for jobs moving overseas? Who do you think advocates free trade all the time? Republicans.

That’s it! You hit it on the head! Trump doesn’t blindly accept the Republican mantra of free trade. He’s saying we have to reexamine these imbalances and the consequences. I think Republicans and some Conservatives want someone who isn’t providing rote answers. I think Liberals are right when they complain that Republicans think the solution to everything is tax cuts. There’s far more to the problems of the USA than that. The Democrat solutions are worse but tax cuts aren’t a panacea.

[Mosier]

@Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur

My point is that Liberals and Progressives are indifferent to the plight of the blue collar. That’s why Hillary so easily said that coal miners were going to lose their jobs.

Do you remember the context in which she said this? Do you even care?

She acknowledged that renewable energy would put coal miners out of jobs, and was reminding everyone that we can’t just leave the coal miners high and dry because of it. She was pointing out that she’s the only person who has a plan for how to help the coal miners who are going to lose their jobs as renewable energy becomes more prominent.

[Quote=What Hillary actually said]
So for example, I’m the only candidate which has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity using clean renewable energy as the key into coal country. Because we’re going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right?

And we’re going to make it clear that we don’t want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories.

Now we’ve got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don’t want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce the energy that we relied on.
[/quote]

Now why do you suppose the only part anyone ever quotes is “we’re going to put a lot of coal miners out of business”? Seriously take a moment and think about that.

[YogSothoth]

The whole thing about making more money having kids than working is a repurposing of an old complaint people have against the poor or “welfare moms”. This isn’t a new thing, but the same arguments being used against Syrian refugees is.

[msmith537]

@Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur

The “manliness” aspect comes in because masculine men (versus pajama boys) desire to create things whether growing crops or manufacturing cars. Pajama Boys don’t like getting their manicures messed up so they write algorithms. The bigger picture is that the society as a whole is becoming feminized. While there are very good aspects to this change, one bad aspect is manufacturing has been devalued.

Bullshit. Manufacturing hasn’t become “devalued”. Paying uneducated people to perform repetitive and dangerous tasks that can be performed by automation has become devalued.

The fact of the matter is that creative, technical work such as “writing algorithms” provides far more value and benefit to society in the form of increased productivity and standard of living. These “pajama boys” as you call them desire to create things. They just do it with their mind.

Why do you think more wealth comes out of Silicon Valley and Wall Street than the Rust Belt?

@Pearl Clutching Provocateur

That’s it! You hit it on the head! Trump doesn’t blindly accept the Republican mantra of free trade. He’s saying we have to reexamine these imbalances and the consequences. I think Republicans and some Conservatives want someone who isn’t providing rote answers. I think Liberals are right when they complain that Republicans think the solution to everything is tax cuts. There’s far more to the problems of the USA than that. The Democrat solutions are worse but tax cuts aren’t a panacea.

Trump accepts free trade when it’s his business. His rhetoric about “bad deals” is populist protectionist bullshit designed to mobilize people in Rust Belt swing states who don’t realize that the loss of manufacturing jobs is due to larger forces of globalization and automation that can’t be reversed. Those factory jobs are not coming back any more than buggy-whip or whale oil lamps makers.

The problem is that it’s difficult to see the benefits from free trade because the lower cost of goods is spread throughout the entire economy whereas a factory closing is very localized and more visible.
But your posts do a good job demonstrating the thought processes and motivations of many Trump voters:
-Buys into his pandering to disenfranchised working class
-“Manly” and irreverent persona taps into fears about “feminization” of the country
-“Action-oriented” talk appeals to people who find nuanced political discussion and compromise frustrating

[Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur]

@msmith537

Why do you think more wealth comes out of Silicon Valley and Wall Street than the Rust Belt?

That’s the new Democratic party there for you in a nutshell. Elitist professionals who look down on everyone else and rig the system for their own benefit and soothe their fragile egos. I suspect if not for the Federal Reserve pumping fiat money into the system Silicon Valley would not be doing as well.

There’s no argument that technology has raised productivity and enhanced everyone’s lives. But ultimately what enhances people’s lives are tangible goods and services. Try to feed your family an algorithm lately?

My big point is that as a society we’ve allowed manufacturing, blue collar, and trade jobs to disappear too easily and that government has been complicit in it. Yes, automation is largely to blame. Yes, it may make sense to outsource to a Third World country. But ultimately, society has deemed these jobs as not worth saving and worse as beneath our dignity to do in some cases. We’ve allowed illegals to flood into this country largely because we don’t want to do jobs like roofing and don’t want to pay Americans a fair wage for these jobs. It’s dysfunctional.

[Mosier]

@Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur

That’s the new Democratic party there for you in a nutshell. Elitist professionals who look down on everyone else and rig the system for their own benefit and soothe their fragile egos. I suspect if not for the Federal Reserve pumping fiat money into the system Silicon Valley would not be doing as well.

There’s no argument that technology has raised productivity and enhanced everyone’s lives. But ultimately what enhances people’s lives are tangible goods and services. Try to feed your family an algorithm lately?

My big point is that as a society we’ve allowed manufacturing, blue collar, and trade jobs to disappear too easily and that government has been complicit in it. Yes, automation is largely to blame. Yes, it may make sense to outsource to a Third World country. But ultimately, society has deemed these jobs as not worth saving and worse as beneath our dignity to do in some cases. We’ve allowed illegals to flood into this country largely because we don’t want to do jobs like roofing and don’t want to pay Americans a fair wage for these jobs. It’s dysfunctional.

Could you please respond to post #50? Thanks in advance.

[msmith537]

@Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur

That’s the new Democratic party there for you in a nutshell. Elitist professionals who look down on everyone else and rig the system for their own benefit and soothe their fragile egos. I suspect if not for the Federal Reserve pumping fiat money into the system Silicon Valley would not be doing as well.

I’m not a Democrat. However this is the fundamental disconnect with conservatives I can’t fathom.
-You want your obsolete blue collar jobs protected, but you vote for Republicans who are pro-free market and anti-protectionism
-You complain health care costs are too high but you vote for Republicans who are against
-You feel elitist professionals look down on you, but which party do you think 99% of the investment bankers I know vote for? They vote Republican.
-You complain about “cronyism” and yet you are voting for a candidate whose entire platform is based on his ability to “make deals”.
Seems inconsistent to me.

@Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur

There’s no argument that technology has raised productivity and enhanced everyone’s lives. But ultimately what enhances people’s lives are tangible goods and services. Try to feed your family an algorithm lately?

Since I basically get paid to test algorithms for the financial services industry…yes.

Try to feed your family a machine part you fabricated in a factory? Post people don’t literally make their own food. So why is someone making something with their hands more “legitimate” work than someone making something with their intellect?

@Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur

My big point is that as a society we’ve allowed manufacturing, blue collar, and trade jobs to disappear too easily and that government has been complicit in it. Yes, automation is largely to blame. Yes, it may make sense to outsource to a Third World country. But ultimately, society has deemed these jobs as not worth saving and worse as beneath our dignity to do in some cases. We’ve allowed illegals to flood into this country largely because we don’t want to do jobs like roofing and don’t want to pay Americans a fair wage for these jobs. It’s dysfunctional.

Because those jobs suck! And I know this from experience! When I was in high school and college, I worked all manner of factory, warehouse, food service and construction jobs. It’s shitty, backbreaking work. And because it is work that is often repetitive and dangerous, it’s the sort of work that easily lends itself to automation or outsourcing.

[Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur]

@Mosier

Do you remember the context in which she said this? Do you even care?

She acknowledged that renewable energy would put coal miners out of jobs, and was reminding everyone that we can’t just leave the coal miners high and dry because of it. She was pointing out that she’s the only person who has a plan for how to help the coal miners who are going to lose their jobs as renewable energy becomes more prominent.

Now why do you suppose the only part anyone ever quotes is “we’re going to put a lot of coal miners out of business”? Seriously take a moment and think about that.

Since you asked politely…

My response is that never in a million years would Hillary say, “Hey we passed medical tort reform so you trial lawyers are going lose your practices. But it’s okay. I hear Uber is hiring.”

[andros]

And I’m glad she didn’t say anything like that about coal workers. Whew.

[Mosier]

@Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur

Since you asked politely…

My response is that never in a million years would Hillary say, “Hey we passed medical tort reform so you trial lawyers are going lose your practices. But it’s okay. I hear Uber is hiring.”

I’m trying to look at this statement from every angle I can think of, and I can’t see any way in which it can be an attempt to address or rebut what I said.

Do you acknowledge that quoting “We’re going to put a lot of coal miners out of business” out of context is a dishonest summary of what she said, or not?

[crypto]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

Then vote for Bernie Sanders to restore the rightful place of the working people in the Democratic Party. Those elitist limousine liberals are not real liberals and I respect your average TRUMP voter much more then those traitors who deserve to be purged from our ranks.

This is the most honest statement I have read on this topic in a while. I don’t like a lot of what Bernie Sanders is advocating, but he is true to what the Democratic party was supposed to be about.

@Valteron

But for what it is worth, here is my answer. The trouble is, as Trump well knows, ignorance is a powerful weapon. It is much easier to yell that a refugee gets more than an old age pensioner than it is to examine the detailed reasons for the different amounts… …

Trump didn’t start the rumor. It was cranked out by someone sitting at their computer.

And EVERY politicial knows the power of ignorance.

@RivkahChaya

I will also vote for whoever the Democrat candidate is, but I hope to hell it’s Clinton.

This saddens me. You claim you are a Democrat, and yet you are hoping to vote for someone who is more Republican than Trump. Do you even have any idea WHAT she stands for?

Hillary Clinton is about Hillary Clinton. That is it. A constituency of one. She doesn’t feel your pain. She doesn’t give a shit about you. She is the establishment. That means Wall St.

Do some research and take a look at NAFTA (which was the single greatest betrayal of the working class in this country EVER, passed by Billy with her urging and support), her pandering to the investment banks, big pharma and a thousand other PACs. She is a war hawk. A chicken hawk, who will send your kids to war, because they are disposable to her. She doesn’t care about the working class (except for those that serve her). She is so far from being a democrat it’s not even debatable.

Removing all of the BS rhetoric, the biggest reason to vote for Trump is because (as far as anyone can tell at this point, anyway) he doesn’t seem to be beholden to anyone.

He scares the shit out of both sides because they don’t seem to have anything hanging over him that he is worried about, and without that, they can’t control him.

I love the fact that Bernie has raised the money he has raised with an average donation of $27. He didn’t make $675,000 for 3 hours of speeches at Goldman Sachs. Bernie is a bit TOO left for me, but he is true to who he is. I will take his honesty and integrity over that crazy, entitled, co-opted pantsuit.

Hillary Clinton truly scares me. Voting for her because she has a (D) next to her name is just sad.

[Bryan_Ekers]

I’m kinda looking forward to the Clinton administration - she strikes me as likely to be a ruthlessly effective war president, for some reason.