Why prayer?

In My Humble Opinion
1

What is your opinion on the value of “prayer” yesterday as advocated by our president and so many others?

Up front disclosure, I am an atheist/humanist, and personally did not care for the president’s repeated “God Bless[es]”, call for prayers, and quotation of Scripture.

But I would appreciate any opinions on how the act of praying helps someone deal with a tragedy such as this. In my atheist opinion, I was able to think of many many actions that would be of more use to the victims than my “prayers” or other good thoughts/meditations. And I don’t understand how prayer as personal introspection would allow one to make sense of this event, or reconcile it with an omnipootent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being.

Tho I acknowledge this may be a difficult topic, please believe that I do not intend to insult or offend. And I would not post this if I did not respect your ability to discuss this whatever your religiousphilosophical beliefs.

2

DINSDALE –

Those of us who believe in God and in His ultimate benevolence, even in the face of evil human acts of free will, are comforted by the thought that He may be with us, with those who are still suffering, and with those who have died.

Really? What? I intend to give blood (as soon as they start accepting more volunteers); I will send a check (as soon as I determine the best place to send it; and I have come to work to do my infintesimal part to support the economy. Other than that, I am at a total loss as to what I can do, and would appreciate suggestions.

That said, this is not an “either/or” proposition. For people of faith, the choice is not “pitch in OR pray;” we may reasonably be expected to do both. For many of us, however, we offer our prayers and support each other in services because there is little else we can do.

IMO, it doesn’t allow anyone to make any more sense of it than one can make without faith. But if this is one of those “why would God allow such a thing to happen?” questions, the short answer is that some of us, at least, believe that God does not often interfere with human beings’ exercise of free will, no matter how horrific the outcome. If one believes this, it is not necessary to reconcile the event with an “omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent” being, because this cannot be laid at His feet.

3

I dunno what I believe. But if there is a benevolent force out there, I would wish that he/she/it would bring some peace to the grieving, some strength to deal with the impossible. I want them to be able to find the reserves inside themselves that let us go on when crap like this happens. If a deity/force can help with that (and I think it can) this is what I pray for.

I don’t pray for God to do things. I pray for God to help people do things.

That may not be what you were looking for, but that’s my take on it.

4

Dinsdale,

At any point yesterday did you take a moment to reflect on the enormity of what happened? Did you wish for the safety (or at least quick and painless death) of the victims? Did you wonder how evil and insanity can exist in the world and what the rest of us can do to combat it?

All of those are fitting subjects for prayer, for those who believe in a Supreme Being. And the organized, written prayers that we learned as children are also comforting rituals in times of stress.

Public prayer (e.g., church prayer services) is a literal and symbolic sign of people coming together as a community for both their mutual support and expression of concern and love for others.

As Jodi says, it is not an “either/or” proposition. There is no requirement that we must drop everything (blood donations, writing checks to relief services, forwarding messages from loved ones, etc.) and fall to our knees for an hour. In any case, many of us would believe it time well spent.

Much of this response will also fit any posts you may be planning concerning candlelight vigils, leaving flowers at the site, etc. Just as the symbolism of attacking the WTC and Pentagon are obvious to everyone, so should be the symbolism of these expressions of grief, support and so on.

5

Thank you for your responses.

Tho I am personally struggling with this type of idea, I now believe yesterday’s wounds are too fresh for a discussion of this type here and now.

I repeat that I did not intend to offend, but in retrospect, offense seems an inevitable result of my OP.

Please accept my sincere apologies.

This is such a difficult time. I fully support each and every individual doing whatever (nonviolent) act/s they personally believe will help them and others most.

6

Not that I speak for anyone else, but here’s my take:

I agree with what has been said. God does his work through people. I hear a lot of people say that we never “see” God anymore, compared to back in the Old Testament days when he was forever talking to us. I’m not about to get into a debate about the Bible, since I am not well-versed enough and the Bible was written by people, and thus is subject to error and interpretation. But I believe that God works through us. When I see a young healthy person helping an old woman carry groceries, when a friend gives me a hug just because I need it and they love me, when I look at my husband and realize that I would happily live in a shack as long as we’re together…that, to me, is the work of a greater power. So many amazing things happen in the world that it’s impossible for me to imagine that there isn’t a God.

What happened yesterday when those buildings were hit was the work of something evil. The way Americans pulled together to help, to rescue others, to donate blood, to do whatever they could…that was the work of God. I would never tell someone that they have to believe in God, but when I see good people doing good things, I believe it’s God’s work even if they don’t. So I pray. I pray that people are safe, I pray that there is no further damage, I pray that we all have the strength to get through what happened.

I’m not about to say that my way is the right way. You asked why I pray, I told you. I respect the fact that some people don’t believe in God, and I don’t think disbelief makes anyone a bad person. I just hope that people respect the fact that I do have those beliefs.

One more thing: Yesterday, when I had that moment of doubt about God, I asked the same thing–why pray? But I figured that even if it doesn’t help, it certainly can’t hurt.

7

Bush made a huge error by quoting the Bible. Or if he felt that he had to say something religious, he should have at least chosen a quote from the Koran. While Bush claims to be a uniter, his words consistently show that he’s not. And for him to quote the Bible (in light of what happened) is not only divisive, it’s also stupid. Its what the Muslim terrorists want. They want to turn it into a religious war. They want all Muslims around the world to get angry. And they want the Bible-toters to attack the Muslims to create even more friction.

What Bush said was just plain stupid. And I’m starting to agree with others who call him an idiot. Please get rid of this pathetic excuse for a leader. Bring back Clinton! (And I understand that it would involve repealing a certain Constitutional amendment). IMHO (of course).

8

DINSDALE, I don’t think anyone was insulted by your question. At least, I wasn’t.

This made me laugh – a rare thing today. I don’t disagree with the underlying sentiment, but as a political thing . . .Heck, great idea! That would have gone over well! You should apply to be his PR advisor.

9

I, too, am not entirely sure what I believe. I was raised a Protestant Christian, and still have a belief in a Higher Power (God, if you must), but am not sure I believe everything I was taught.

However, as for prayer, I do pray, especially in a crisis like this. (This, besides doing other things, like giving blood, donations, etc.) Why? Because it makes me feel like I am capable of doing SOMETHING to help. It takes the focus off ME and my grumbles/gripes/complaints/bitches, etc. and puts it where it should be – on those who need help.

I remember one time, years ago, when I found out my brother had broken his arm and required surgery. I didn’t find this out until weeks after the event – when I asked why no one had told me, my mom replied “There was nothing you could have done.” I said “I could have prayed!”

Finally, it makes me feel good. A selfish reason to pray, but a truthful one.

10

So then hopefully you can see how Bush’s actual quote could be viewed by someone who isn’t Christian.

And I thought that the message yesterday from most political figures was that politics are not important at the moment. Right now, we need a leader and not a politician.

11

Hey Jackknife that comment about giving a verse out of the Koran is got to be the dumbest thing I have seen all day. If there is more people like you, no wonder Clinton got elected in the first place.

This is country is based on Christianity and the Bible not the Koran.

12

Re: Bush’s choice of words

Tho I am not a scholar, there certainly are substantial commonalities between Christian and Muslim thought. The golden rule, love your neighbor, for example.

One problem with going to the Koran is, we did not know at the time (and still haven’t proven AFAIK), Muslim responsibility. Would have been awkward to, in essence, express understanding for someone doing something we didn’t know for sure that they did.

OTOH, it would have been an opportunity to express world unity by all sensible religions against such acts. Could have said all cultures abhor these acts, and all cultures provide succor in times of need. Might have emphasized our internal diversity as well as our membership in the world community, instead of boasting as the invincible America – you can knock us down but can’t knock us out.

Personally, I have many reasons for disliking Bush. One of which is his, and elements of his party’s, efforts supporting religion in terms of school prayer, vouchers, support for religious charitable organizations, etc.

So to me personally, in light of my philosophy and biases, his repeated mention of prayer and Bible quoting seemed exclusionary – of me at least – instead of inclusionary. I repeat, I saw him speak 3 different times. Each included at least one reference to God, two of the three more than one. And these were not lengthy remarks. In contrast, the excerpts I saw from Tony Blair had no such references, but were nevertheless eloquent and comforting. (I understand, however, that at other times TB did refer to God). Moreover, GWB COULD have found appropriate sentiments in nonreligious texts, such as historical or literary quotes, that may enjoy nearly as widespread familiarity as the Bible verse he chose.

His choice offended me, and I assume others (for example Mrs. D.) I suggest that he had available alternatives that would not have offended me, and would have been nearly, if not as, reassuring to Christians. Moreover, this was not some yahoo speaking off the cuff. Every word was carefully chosen by numerous writers and advisors.

My president and his team intentionaly and repeatedly chose words and phrases that any sentient being would realize had the potential to either offend or provide no comfort to a large number of people (admittedly, a tiny minority of this predominantly Christian nation). I don’t apologize for noticing that. He certainly was not going out of his way to be inclusive of me. I am sure you will all agree that you do not notice exclusionary actions/words so much unless you are the one being excluded.

Re: prayer and God

Having rejected a deity rather early in ife, perhaps I retain an “elementary school” aspect of my understanding of a deity. But to me, if a deity were all-powerful and all knowing, I find it reprehensible for him/her/it not to have crashed those planes into the Hudson, or caused those responsible to have been spontaneously aborted decades ago.

I guess I’m selfish because I have never appreciated sentiments like “he is in a better place.” Sorry, but I like my friends and family right where they are. In an existence that I’m pretty damn sure actually exists. Rather than some potential “other” existence which, I might really hope exists, but, no matter how strong my faith …

Every one of us is trying to find some meaning in these events. To come to an understanding of what it says about our species. To determine how or if we will change how we lead our lives. Trying to reconcile our yearning for revenge with our condemnation of the violence that the terrorists committed.

Personally, I do not see how one can obtain any guidance or comfort from chalking this up to an inexplicable plan of God. And, to me, if God is a jerk/trickster enough to allow this to happen, I would have to question what possible use my prayers would have.

Don’t you think a good portion of the believers on those planes and falling out of those buildings were praying their asses off? Were their prayers answered/acknowledged? By killing and disrupting entire families?

And how about the nuts you hear of who believe that their route to heaven lies in murdering Americans? What if they are, in fact, right in their view of God? Personally, I find more sanity in rejecting both, and all other, interpretations.

13

I guess what I received from Bush’s calling on God and the Bible quotation was not that he was calling on the Christian God, but God, be He Allah, Jehovah, whatever. Also, I feel that it was the sentiment from the quote, not its origin, that matters. The Bible is also the spiritual book that most Americans have knowledge of. I don’t think it was meant to be excusionary - I think it was meant to draw from the most common source of spiritual comfort for the bulk of Americans.

I know he’s a Christian or has Christian favoritism, but until he starts saying, “Let’s pray to Jesus”, I took “God” as generic.

Just my $.02

14

While I agree he’s devisive while claiming to be a uniter,
I don’t think he should have done a Koran quote (or at least
just a Koran quote).

The White House has been very careful not to blame the
terrorism on anybody officially yet. Quoting the Koran
alone would have been saying, “although we know it was
really fundamentalist Muslims miscontruing their faith.”

What he might have done is quoted both the bible and the
Koran.

15

How many things are wrong with that?

  1. The country is based on the constitution. The constitution
    is based largely on other governments, tempered with ideas
    from Montesqiue et al.

  2. The people who founded the country were Christian in the
    same sense lots of people are - they followed Jesus’ teachings
    until they were inconvenient. As G. Gordon Liddy has
    famously said, “If this were truly a Christian nation
    we’d have been crucified long ago.”

  3. Those same people explicitly protected freedom of
    religion in the constitution.

  4. I don’t see how “A is based on B, therefore reading from
    C is inherently wrong,” is logical.

16

Of course I can see how it would be viewed by an atheist, or someone else not Christian or Jewish. (The 23rd Psalm is not exclusively Christian.) But my point was that to expect or suggest that he read from the Koran at such a time is so touchingly naive as to be sort of marginally funny.

I don’t see how invoking the name of God under circumstances such as these becomes a political act. It is what many of us are doing at the moment. I can see how it would strike an off-note for those who do not believe, but that doesn’t make it a political act, nor does it make it a calculated one.

17

The 23rd Psalm is from the Old Testament, a work revered by Moslems, as well as Christians and Jews.

18

Even though it was a bible quote, from the 23rd Psalm, all that was quoted was “Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil.” I felt it was entirely appropriate for the occasion because it summed up the situation and how he felt about it. Just because it was a bible quote doesn’t mean he’s being “exclusionary”. Would you feel the same way about the quote if it came from, say, Martin Luther King, Jr.?

19

From my personal experiences, prayer is a relief and a release. Keeping someone in your thoughts and the hope that your faith will bring them only good is comforting.

Besides, Bush was reaching out. He shouldn’t be belittled because of his beliefs -would you want someone to say something about what you believe in?- or how he chose to convey them.

What’s done is done. Praying certainly can’t hurt.

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