I am not a fundamentalist, but I certainly know fundamentalists who believe that living a goodly (or godly, if you prefer) life is a manifestation of having accepted God. Saying that you accept God but not living the life is as hypocritical to them as appearing to live the life but not truly opening your heart to God.
However, this is getting more into the area of GD.
I agree with everything, except that you lose some points for quoting G. Gordon Liddy (!!???) :eek:
I doubt right now that even 50% of the country is practicing Christian. Does anyone have a breakdown of actual religious affiliation or non-affiliation?
George W. Bush asking me to go to church and say a prayer made me sick to my stomach. Just as sick as if he said to go to the altar and sacrifice a virgin to plead to the Gods for mercy. We are Americans. We are not all Christians. It all seems normal, nice and good, if that is the fairy tale you want to build your life around. It is irritating to listen to if you don’t.
I think that’s going a bit far.
It was just a request on his part, nothing more. No harm can come from mere prayer, and if you don’t believe in prayer, you can always politely decline.
Sacrificing a virgin, on the other hand, is distinctly and directly harmful. You’d have every right to be offended by such a request.
Bush isn’t asking you to worship his God, or attend his church. He’s merely asking for prayer, in a very low-key and non-denominational way. To a believer, prayer might prove helpful; to a non-believer, prayer is at least harmless. Getting outraged over such an innocuous exercise is a bit over the top.
He did not “Just ask”…he called Friday a day of prayer. I am not outraged, just incredibly irritated.
I’m so terribly sorry that something that brings so much comfort to a vast number of people annoys anyone. And I don’t mean that sarcastically.
When we should all be coming together, how can anyone decide to interpret a day of prayer and remembrance as a dividing action? We were encouraged to go to our places of worship. That could be a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, forest, altar, or even your couch in front of the TV. You could pray to God by what ever name you know, or to the almighty dollar if that’s your thing.
The important thing to do right now is to keep the remembrance of the victims in our hearts, minds, or souls, and go forward as a united nation.
We need cool heads and warm hearts at this time.
It is reprehensible for anyone to use this week’s tragedy to further their own agendas, and that includes trampling on other’s beliefs. If Bush had somehow forces one religion upon everyone, I would have been appalled. He did not. In the prayer service at which he spoke, not all the speakers were of one faith. They were, however, united as a country.
Bush’s religion is not my own. But I do not feel compelled by his actions to worship in his exact manner.
Not too many years ago, I was an agnostic. If this had occurred then, I would have accepted it gladly, as a day set aside to remember the victims, and hope for the best. I can’t say whether I would have prayed then, but I would not have begrudged the majority of his country their day of prayer. I’d like to say that I would have tried to join in, in whatever way I could.
I’ve been crying a lot this week, and this one of the major causes. Atheists and agnostics all too often have a superiority complex, looking upon the religious as irrational. I know, I’ve been there. It is a flaw held by many of the faithful as well, as they see atheists as immoral and blind. Both sides pain me.
Our country was founded on the freedom of religion. We are all free to worship in whatever way we see fit, and the government is not allowed to dictate our choices in this matter. This freedom has not been abridged this week. Anyone who chooses to interpret a day of prayer and remembrance as exclusionary is reading far too much into it, and coloring it with their own assumptions of the motives of the religious.
I am an educated, rational, free-thinking person. I am also a religious, pious, humble person. The two ae not mutually exclusive.
I don’t think it’s a superiority complex so much as a sense of exclusion. We see our statesmen getting together to sing religious hymns, we see Bible verses inserted in almost every speech, we see calls for a National Day Of Prayer by the one person who should know the Constitution, and we see a major gathering where people of all faiths(and quite a few were memntioned individually) were asked to come together. No one is calling for those of no faith to join in on this national group hug. It’s as if we don’t exist, which doesn’t exactly contribute to a feeling of “superority”, believe me.
Which is just another way of asking people to pray. He’s not requiring people to pray, or even insinuating that the prayerless folks are somehow depraved or evil. He is merely asking those people who believe in prayer to devote some special time to this occasion.
Heck, Tbanksgiving is supposed to be a time for God-believing people to give thanks for the blessings that they (and others) have received. Should we ban this holiday, simply because not everyone believes in giving thanks?
Either way, it’s a silly thing to get upset about.
I can see people getting upset if there was a sign outside the national cathedral saying “No atheists allowed.” But this was not the case. The prayer service was a religious gathering in a house of worship. Our president, as an American citizen, is free to worship in his manner of choosing.
If you are not religious at all, you’ve got two choices: don’t participate at all, or participate in some manner that is acceptable to you, within the pbounds of your own philosophy. You are completely free to worship and pray or not in your own way.
Like I just said:
I believe all of us have been included in every proclamation–we’ve been called “Americans.”
I could buy that “separate but equal”(where have I heard that before?) idea, where the rest of the nation gets together on national television and radio to mourn and us atheists get together on our own to mourn, if it weren’t for the fact that the President’s father once said that he didn’t consider atheists to be “real” Americans. Perhaps you could show me where those who do not worship at all have been invited to join in on these gatherings. Perhaps this is all my imagination.
Please, please, don’t misconstrue my remarks as separatist. I will assume that you honestly misunderstood, as I don’t think you were baiting me.
The only reason for anyone to be separate yesterday is for particular method of prayer and/or remembrance. Perhaps you wouldn’t have felt comfortable in my church. That’s fine. I wouldn’t have felt comfortable at a mosque, but only because that’s not how I worship. (Although I did bring flowers last night to the mosque down the street which someone tried to burn down the night before. It ws beautiful to see the piles of flowers from the community, from members of all religions or no religion.)
The day of prayer and remembrance was not intended to separate anyone. Not everyone in the cathedral was praying in the same manner, but they were together. I could pray alongside you while you mourned in your own manner. We may well get the same benefit.
We have minutes of silence often in respect of the victims of tragedies. Everyone is free to use that time in whatever manner they wish. This day was simply an extension of that common practice.
Now, I’ve never been a great fan of either President Bush. I voted for neither. Both of them espose views which in genreal do seem a little too exclusionary for a president. The quote you refer to is a shameful thing for the man who represents our country to say. However, it was not said by our current president. No matter how similar the younger Bush may be to his father, we must judge him on his own actions. This week, he has performed far better than I would have imagined.
If yesterday was declared simply a “day of prayer,” I would agree with you completely that it was exclusionary, in that not all citizens would wish to pray. The “and remembrance” extends the offer to all Americans.
I am sure that you would have been welcome at nearly any gathering yesterday. Americans were urged to come together yesterday. Frankly, it doesn’t sound to me that you would have been to keen on going to church yesterday. That’s fine by me. If you had wanted to, however, I an sure you would have been welcome nearly everywhere.
Please don’t think I’m trying to start an argument or bait anybody, but how do atheists mourn the dead? I’m genuinely interested as to how they do. Atheists, by definition, don’t believe in God, and therefor wouldn’t believe in heaven or hell. How do you mourn somebody who has just been erased from the earth? Do you just feel sad that they’re not here anymore? Again, I’m not trying to start a fight, I’m just looking for a little perspective, as a life-long Christian.
From Encarta:
Mourn:
transitive and intransitive verb express sadness at somebody’s death: to feel and show sadness because somebody has died mourning the loss of his father
transitive and intransitive verb wear mourning clothes: to wear mourning clothes or other things that indicate grief over a death
intransitive verb express sadness at something lost: to feel and show sadness because something has been lost or no longer exists She mourned the loss of her independence.
[Old English murnan . Ultimately from an Indo-European base meaning “to remember,” which is also the ancestor of English remember and memory.]
I don’t see any mention of god, religion, heaven or hell in the definition. Atheists mourn by rememembering the dead and realizing that we will never, ever see them again. Our grief may be even more profound than yours because we have nor expectaion of being reunited.
OK, that’s all I was asking. I guess I’ve never thought of mourning for someone without praying for them. I’ve always mourned for someone by first grieving and then feeling better later on by knowing that God has taken care of them. I know this is touchy, and I thank you for not attacking me. It seems like I can’t ask something like this without being insulted, or told that I’m stupid, or something like that. Thank you again.
While it may have seemed like baiting, I am honestly asking if at any of these national gatherings did politicians and/or dignitaries specifically ask non-believers to join in, the way that representatives from the various religions were asked. When prayers are infused throughout all of the national ceremonies, and every major religion(and quite a few minor ones) is specifically named and included, a non-believer starts to feel a bit like a fifth wheel in this country.
Well, you have to look at how many people there are in the country who have at least some type of religion, even if they’re not practicing, compared to how many people have absolutely none. The number of true atheists in this country is very low. There’s no way they can please every single person, so they have to try to please the majority. That’s just the way it goes, you know.
Six different speeches just this morning, all calling for people of all faiths to come together.
That’s just the way it goes.