Why racism is not dead

The BBQ Pit
41

[QUOTE=Eyebrows 0f Doom]
I can see how in the right context, with the right people, such jokes could be used for some kind of shock humor at their absurdity, but it’s the casual use of the word “nigger” that makes it extremely offensive and less like a joke. Maybe I’ve been lucky, but I’ve never heard anyone in my everyday life (aside from crazies on the subway) use that word to refer to someone.
[/QUOTE]

Ooh. I didn’t really think about that, but you’re right. I would consider using the word “nigger” when “black man/women” would do* to be going too far. Again, though, it depends who’s using it and why. YMMV, as always.

*Meaning, I can imagine the use of the word “nigger” for comedic value. This lolcat, for instance (about a quarter of the way down, cat wearing turquoise knit hat): http://caturday.emmawitteveen.nl/

42

[QUOTE=Eyebrows 0f Doom]
I can see how in the right context, with the right people, such jokes could be used for some kind of shock humor at their absurdity, but it’s the casual use of the word “nigger” that makes it extremely offensive and less like a joke. Maybe I’ve been lucky, but I’ve never heard anyone in my everyday life (aside from crazies on the subway) use that word to refer to someone.
[/QUOTE]

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs, the truth is the jokes just don’t work if you substitute ‘black man’ for ‘nigger’. The word is part and parcel of the joke.

43

[QUOTE=aldiboronti]
Leaving aside the rights and wrongs, the truth is the jokes just don’t work if you substitute ‘black man’ for ‘nigger’. The word is part and parcel of the joke.
[/QUOTE]

I’m wondering if this logic applies to other ethnic jokes. For instance, notice how “Jew” rather than “kike” is used in the Jew jokes found in the OP? I’ve also never heard “wop”, “spic”, or “mic” used in other ethnic jokes, though I tend not to participate in that kind of humor.

It occurs to me that if we saw a couple of German kids telling Holocaust/kike jokes whilst driving around in their Volkswagon, I don’t think most of us would be laughing along.

I can only think of a few situations where swapping ethnic jokes would be funny. But the situation in the OP doesn’t make the list.

44

Probably not what the OP wants to hear, but I don’t see the big deal. I’d be more concerned if this was casual everyday behaviour, but shortly after funerals and such, when stress levels are already high… not a matter for concern, let alone self-torture. Get over it.

45

[QUOTE=Li’l Pluck]
**Loach ** and marshmellow: I don’t tell inappropriate jokes based on people’s race, gender, religion, etc. because…well, they’re inappropriate. Fucking inappropriate. Especially as a my-mother-just-died-and-I-need-to-take-my-mind-off-of-it stress reliever. Then again, maybe it’s just me.
[/QUOTE]

It’s not just you. :wink:

Ensign, my condolences.

The idea that racist/sexist/homophobic/anti-Semetic jokes are okay if the people telling and listening aren’t racist/sexist/homophobic/anti-Semetic… well, how do you know? And yes, I enjoy humor and exaggerated stereotypes, but typically of traits that one has control over. We can’t change or decide race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. (at least not easily) so why disparage a group because of their membership?

The very fact that someone would assume that it’s okay to tell a joke disparaging people for something that is part of their genetic makeup causes me offense… and a pretty good indicator that the individual is not someone I want to be friends with. Whether it’s a Black joke, or a Jewish joke, or a gay joke. And I don’t mean that I have a problem with someone from a community taking the piss out of someone who is an extreme stereotype, but anybody who inserts a slur in the telling of a joke is already pretty much on the thinnest ice imaginable with me.

46

[QUOTE=MagicEyes]
Are you kidding? You really don’t see anything wrong with jokes about lynching? There is no good time or “right context” for any joke like that.

If people didn’t think these jokes had some truth, they wouldn’t think they’re funny. If you substituted white for black in the pizza joke, would anyone think it’s funny? No, because there’s no stereotype of white people being too lazy to support their families.
[/QUOTE]

No, not kidding, how many ways should it be said? There’s nothing inherently wrong with jokes about lynching. Depending on context and intent, they can be damn funny.

And from my point of view, I’d say it’s you that has a crappy sense of humor. And no, for the record, I think Freddy Got Fingered is shit.

[QUOTE=panda meat]
Also, there is no excuse for that sort of thing. The people in this thread making excuses and justifications for why it’s okay are simply making excuses. Sharp condemnation will get the point across very quickly that that crap is harmful to people and not to be tolerated.
[/QUOTE]

If that were the case, this thread wouldn’t be going in the direction it is, eh? I don’t need to justify what I find funny to anyone but myself. Nor do you need to justify why you don’t find it funny.

47

I find many of those types of jokes funny in certain contexts.

What is the best brand of watch to buy your wife on her birthday?

None of them. There is a perfectly good clock on the stove

What do you tell a women with two black eyes?

Nothing. You already told the bitch twice

What do you call a women with one black eye?

A quick learner

I find all of these hysterical unless you say them directly to my wife or either of my daughters in which case I will be forced to blow your house up. It is all about context.

48

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]
The idea that racist/sexist/homophobic/anti-Semetic jokes are okay if the people telling and listening aren’t racist/sexist/homophobic/anti-Semetic… well, how do you know?
[/QUOTE]

If it’s a stranger? You don’t. If it’s a friend or relative, you probably know.

49

tried to post last night, but the server was doing funny stuff:

[QUOTE=Argent Towers]
There’s a type of humor that relies on sheer shock value to shake people up. Most don’t find it funny - some do. I don’t think there’s anything surprising or new about any of this.

It’s all about the context. After a funeral? Not appropriate. And casually throwing around the word nigger in those jokes kind of makes it a little more offensive. Most people have a hard time using that word freely, so I would suspect those that do it to maybe be a little more likely to actually be racist than someone telling the same jokes but without using that word.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I forgot to mention that I never tell these jokes using the word nigger. It’s always black. And to be fair, they’re not exactly my go-to jokes when people get to telling jokes. I guess I’m just with atomicbadgerrace; I haven’t really felt offended by all that much that I can recall. I know I’ve been outraged by outright racism, but it’s not the same to be offended. Dunno, like I said, I guess I see the jokes as benign because I don’t really feel like they promote racism. If you’re racist, that’s how you are, and a joke isn’t going to change that one way or another.

BTW, I don’t think the lynching one is particularly amusing. I don’t really see the humor in it, kind of like saying “Why are the Jews scared of Germans? Because they killed 6 million of them!” It’s the straight line that doesn’t really lend itself to any humor that I can see. But it doesn’t mean I’m offended by it, just kind of dismayed that it’s trying to pass itself off as a joke.

50

[QUOTE=BlackKnight]
You should have told one of your own.

Q. What do you call a black guy flying a plane?
A: A pilot, you racist bastards.
[/QUOTE]

Heh, that’d be a good one at family get-togethers when my relatives start on their own racist bullshit.

51

Sometimes, jokes which are ostensibly deriving their humor from a shared racism between the teller and the listener are actually metajokes, actually deriving their humor from a shared appreciation for the absurdity of racism. Which is why it makes all the difference if the situation is one in which the teller seems like they may actually genuinely believe the things they’re spouting, or one in which it seems like they’re playing a silly kind of pretend, inhabiting a false and mockable persona for a laugh.

52

[QUOTE=Indistinguishable]
Sometimes, jokes which are ostensibly deriving their humor from a shared racism between the teller and the listener are actually metajokes, actually deriving their humor from a shared appreciation for the absurdity of racism. Which is why it makes all the difference if the situation is one in which the teller seems like they may actually genuinely believe the things they’re spouting, or one in which it seems like they’re playing a silly kind of pretend, inhabiting a false and mockable persona for a laugh.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. A lot of Stephen Colbert’s humor on his show works along the same lines. It’s a different context, of course, but the underlying assumptions about who the person telling the jokes is is the same.

For those people who do think jokes of this nature are inherently wrong, why do you think this? Do you believe they promote racism/sexism/whatever? What other topics are inherently wrong to joke about?

And also for the record, from the 2 seconds of previews I saw, Freddy Got Fingered looked like a steaming pile of dead babies…

Jewish dead babies.

53

What do you call a blind black guy running New York State?

What do you call a black guy running Massachusetts?

(Governor and Your Honor)

54

[QUOTE=atomicbadgerrace]
shrug I don’t think it’s “too soon” for anything, but again, your mileage may vary. No one is expected to have the same sense of humor as another person, and thanks for explaining yours. It’s perfectly fine if you don’t find it funny; I just won’t use a black or Jew or gay or anything like that kind of joke to try to entertain you. :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

No, you syphillitic dingleberry, my mileage *does * vary. I thought I made that clear in my first post. Then again, perhaps you were too busy ROTFLYAO at the thought of “black bodies swinging in the southern breeze” to notice?

If you honestly believe that there’s nothing inherently wrong with telling jokes about lynching or the Holocaust, then there’s something seriously fucked up about you. And about everyone else in this thread who’s defended this kind of “humor” with bullshit claims about context and “it depends on who says it”. And I’d bet that none of them is Black.

But that’s the problem, right? You’re not Black. I am, and I realize that if I’d been born a hundred years ago–hell, *less * than a hundred years ago–I could be a candidate for a good ole’ fashioned lynching (especially assuming that I’d be as “uppity” then as I am now). And if you’d been born a hundred years ago? Well, you do the math.

And you don’t ever have to worry about offending me by telling me a “black or Jew or gay or anything like that kind of joke,” because I tend to not desire to associate with the morally bankrupt among us for whom the great human tragedies of modern times serve as comedic inspiration. Or, maybe worse yet, a mere ::shrug::. So thanks for letting me know what kind of person you are.

[QUOTE=monstro]
I agree with Eyesbrows of Doom. I’m not in the camp that thinks ethnic jokes can never be funny, but “nigger jokes” are a different matter. There’s just something about that word that is un-funny.
[/QUOTE]

This is a good distinction. Another distinction that I think needs to made is this: unless you are a member of the ethnic group in question, you have no goddamn business making jokes about said ethnic group. I don’t tell even “light-hearted” ethnic jokes, but if I did, I sure as hell wouldn’t presume that it’s my right to tell such jokes about an ethnicity (or other group) of which I am not easily identifiable as a member. Really, it’s just bad manners.

Note that this doesn’t, under any circumstance, apply to jokes about lynching or the Holocaust, 'cause whoever says it, that shit just. Ain’t. Cool.

And thanks to Hippy Hollow, panda meat, and others who get what I’m saying, and for not trying to make feel as if I’m not “with it” because I can’t laugh at an unimaginable horror that my grandparents and others of their generation–that’s a mere two generations ago for those of you aren’t counting–had to live in very real fear of.

55

[QUOTE=BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed]

For those people who do think jokes of this nature are inherently wrong, why do you think this? Do you believe they promote racism/sexism/whatever? What other topics are inherently wrong to joke about?

[/QUOTE]

I don’t think a joke is inherently wrong, but whether a joke is funny or not depends on the situation, which means it can’t be inherently appropriate either. A black person telling a “black people” joke registers a different response than a white person telling one. Saying just one black joke is different than saying multiple ones. Saying a nigger joke is different than saying a black joke. Saying a black joke in front of friends is different than saying them in front of people you don’t know well. Actually, given the history of the word “nigger”, I require a lot of evidence that someone who tells a nigger joke is NOT racist. It takes a special person to reach for a nigger joke right after a funeral.

I’m sensing a lot of nonchalance in this thread coming from people who have probably never been called “nigger” or have to had worry about people assuming they’re lazy (or anything negative) because of their race. I have a question for the “no big deal” contigent: If I happen upon a couple of coworkers telling “nigger” jokes in the breakroom, am I supposed to just shrug my shoulders and think, “Well, at least they aren’t wearing white sheets.” Would I be hypersensitive if I steered clear from these individuals in the future?

I’m not going to go so far as to say people shouldn’t tell ethnic jokes, but it doesn’t make sense to believe they are always harmless things that should be shrugged off. They’re so many ways to make people laugh. Why use something as potentially offensive as a nigger joke?

56

[QUOTE=monstro]
I’m not going to go so far as to say people shouldn’t tell ethnic jokes, but it doesn’t make sense to believe they are always harmless things that should be shrugged off. They’re so many ways to make people laugh. Why use something as potentially offensive as a nigger joke?
[/QUOTE]

I’m pretty laidback about ethnic jokes - hell, I’ll tell them myself - but there is a line. Once I was with a bunch of people, and a close friend of mine made some off-hand Asian stereotype comment about me, which I laughed at. Then this person I barely knew joked about “chinks.” Um, no. The reason my friends can make Asian jokes about me is because a) we’re friends, and b) they know that there is a line between funny and offensive. If you don’t know where that line is, you’re better off just keeping your mouth shut.

57

[QUOTE=BlackKnight]
Q. What do you call a black guy flying a plane?
A: A pilot, you racist bastards.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve heard this joke before, except the punch line was:

A nigger.

58

[QUOTE=monstro]
I don’t think a joke is inherently wrong, but whether a joke is funny or not depends on the situation, which means it can’t be inherently appropriate either. A black person telling a “black people” joke registers a different response than a white person telling one. Saying just one black joke is different than saying multiple ones. Saying a nigger joke is different than saying a black joke. Saying a black joke in front of friends is different than saying them in front of people you don’t know well. Actually, given the history of the word “nigger”, I require a lot of evidence that someone who tells a nigger joke is NOT racist. It takes a special person to reach for a nigger joke right after a funeral.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with all of this. For me personally, the use of “nigger” rather than “black person” in the jokes in the OP made me a lot more dubious of their tone than I otherwise would have been; however, I wasn’t there and I don’t know the people involved, so I am charitably giving them the benefit of the doubt (though, of course, the OP was there and does know the people involved, and feels differently).

59

[QUOTE=Marley23]
If it’s a stranger? You don’t. If it’s a friend or relative, you probably know.
[/QUOTE]

Well, take Barack Obama for example. He didn’t know his mentor and pastor of 20 years had some pretty strident views about the USA and White people.

And as HazelNutCoffee’s example proves, having your own rules about what’s okay and what’s not doesn’t mean everyone else gets the rules. I mean, just where is the line? If you’re with your friends and there’s a newcomer/guest/S.O., is that person exempt? Isn’t there a concern they’ll say, “Hey, I can tell this joke because some person of color/Jewish person/woman was cool with it?” Then we get to deal with “why is this joke offensive?” threads in GD. :wink:

When I was much younger I certainly engaged in jokes about Asians, because my friends were mostly Asian. They liked to hit me up with Black jokes, so I gave 'em a taste of their own medicine. You know what? The jokes they had for me were more plentiful and worse. So I got out of that business. As I said before, I think it’s a cheap shot to make fun of something about someone that is part of a deeply held belief, skin color, their heritage. But if you spend all of your time playing WoW, or have no game with the ladies/fellas, we can go there all day long.

As Pluck noted, people like me have historically caught hell, and even today get beaten up and murdered from attitudes that start with jokes. Jokes, IMO, are typically “water testing” for racists/homophobes/sexists/anti-Semites to see what they can get away with. You don’t draw a line in the sand, then they’re safe to escalate until…

Honestly, it’s rare that a “racial” joke is ever funny to me. It might be shocking or EXTREME!!1! but rarely funny. Very few people who have ever lived can pull it off with any success - Lenny Bruce, Richard Pryor, and Chris Rock come to mind. So if you’re not of the caliber of these guys, do like Living Colour say and “leave it alone.”

(And yes, this includes Sarah Silverman. Her stand-up isn’t all that, but her show is awesome because it essentially makes fun of her clueness/racism rather than making fun of others’ race.)

60

[QUOTE=Li’l Pluck]
No, you syphillitic dingleberry, my mileage *does * vary. I thought I made that clear in my first post. Then again, perhaps you were too busy ROTFLYAO at the thought of “black bodies swinging in the southern breeze” to notice?
[/QUOTE]

Gosh, I was going to avoid the baseless personal insults despite being in the Pit, but I guess whatever helps you get your point across, eh?

I guess there’s something seriously fucked up about me, then. Good thing no one’s forcing us to be friends. :slight_smile:

Says who?

And clearly, that would be one of those inappropriate times for a joke of that nature.

Good to know we’re on the same level, then, because I would consider you an uppity prude, based on your comments and tone. So, you’re very welcome. Thanks for the same.