We could debate whether synagogues have actually become places to worship God (there’s no sacrifices, after all), but they have de facto replaced the Temple.
What, do you want to rebuild it and start offering sacrifices again?
Who am I to claim perfect knowledge of the nature of the universe? Sure, let’s try everything, and let’s try it again just to be sure. Even then, we might have made a mistake.
** There was a time before Jews, and there will be a time after. That is inevitable. If no Jews ever become something other than Jews, then eventually the continuity of society itself will end. And Judaism will be gone forever.
A species that ceases to adapt will eventually becomke existnct.
No, not really.
Also, I just wanted to mention, for the record, that most American Jews aren’t Orthodox. I’m mentioning that just because, on this board, at least, it seems like a lot of the Jewish posters who post most about Judaism are Orthodox, and I just wanted to remind people that that isn’t the only strain of Judaism out there.
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And sacrifice is the only acceptable form of worship? What do you think we do there? Just hang out and shoot the breeze?
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In a way, yes, that is correct. A synagouge is known in halachic literature as a mikdash me’at - a small Temple.
Zev Steinhardt
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Well, if you’re willing to try everything, simply send me all your money to invest. Hey, I might even make a couple of bucks for you.
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There was also a time before the United States and there will be a time after the United States. But I don’t see anyone making calls for us to stop being Americans and doing things that identify us as such.
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True, but you have to know which adaptations to make. Not all adaptations are good. Obviously, we don’t believe that abandoning the Torah and the commandments is a good adaptation to make. Such an adaptation would weaken Judaism, not strengthen it.
Zev Steinhardt
Please cite.
By TVAA’s own definition this dones nothing but create a bunch of junk, with some good things thrown in the mix. How does that create anything better?
[ul]
[sup]Should the same standards be applied to the Native Americans?[/sup][sub]And why not?[/sub][/ul]
I really have no idea what either the OP or TVAA are talking about. Speaking for myself, I have no concept of what it could be like not to be Jewish. I mean, what else would I be - French?
I alos consider this an especially inappropriate day for this thread to have shown up.
That’s one of the sacrifices Judaism makes – in retaining stability and distinctiveness, it’s forced to deal poorly with change.
IANAH(istorian), but one could make the argument that centuries of persecution, pogroms and ghettos have paradoxically served to preserve Jewish identity and culture by denying the Jews the opportunity for assimilation. Forcing Jews to live in prescribed areas and preventing them from mainstream occupations and opportunities gave the Jews literally centuries to consider what it is to be a Jew and doubtless helped hone their survival skills.
One could also make the argument that Judaism’s success at getting its transmitters to identify as Jews first and foremost is part of what has historically made Jews such excellent scapegoats. Bigots perceive Jews not as people who happen to have the label/cultural background “Jewish”, but as a distinct and separate group.
(Am I suggesting that the Jews are to blame for centuries of persecution? No, of course not. Only a monkey-head noodle-brain would think that. Nevertheless, all decisions have consequences, and giving yourself permanent outsider status is not a good way to make friends and influence people – it’s like putting a “Kick Me” sign on your back and walking through a bully convention.)
Here’s an interesting way to look at it: I know that there are now multiple “flavors” of Judaism, ranging from highly concerned with ancient tradition and ritual (Orthodox) to socially liberal and relative assimilation (Reform), yes?
Are there now more people who actively identify themselves as Jews, or more people who’re are related to people who identified themselves as Jews but don’t themselves? Who is actually responsible for the greatest spread of ideas and viewpoints that could be considered “Jewish”?
God’s covenant with Abraham included the promise that his descendants would outnumber the stars, right? (A story that is both astonishingly sophisticated and remarkably primitive, all at once… but that’s another post for another thread.)
Who seems to be the recipient of that covenant: people who remain Jewish or people who cease being Jewish?
Just as a quick question, what do you mean when you say “assimilation”? Because every Orthodox Jew I know is fully assimilated, by any standard use of the term. What distinguishes Orthodox Jews from Conservative Jews from Reform Jews from Reconstructionist Jews isn’t level of assimilation or political affiliation (even though differences in political affiliation exist). It’s how religious texts should be interpreted and what specific religious obligations exist for the believer. It’s like asking what the difference is between, say, Lutherans and Catholics and Baptists.
Culturally assimilated? Heck no.
Am I suggesting that everyone should become like everyone else? Of course not. Are Orthodox Jews members of a rigidly-defined subculture that by its very nature requires a certain degree of alienation? Yep.
I’ve heard many times that Orthodox Jews are very concerned about their children being exposed to non-Orthodox ideas, as they tend to break away from tradition to lesser or greater degrees…
While I’m sure all Orthodox Jews can’t be painted with the same brush, I suspect that is a fairly common problem.
There’s a very large element of self-reference in this argument that disturbs me. “Why do we do these things? Because we’re Jews! Why are we Jews? Because we do these things!”
Well, not culturally assimilated how? What experiences or values that you view as fundamental to American life do American Orthodox Jews not share? I mean, it’s got to be more than just not eating bacon.
It’s not American life. I don’t approve or disapprove of American culture any more than I approve or disapprove Orthodox Judaism.
As long as the fundamental concepts of a social system are able to be meaningfully questioned and examined within that system, I’m happy. “We do this because we do this, and it’s unthinkable for us to do otherwise” is not a good way to go about things.
Well, every social system has certain values that it’s based on that are just accepted by members of that system. That’s just the way things work, it seems to me.
But they can at least be induced to change, however slowly.
It’s a matter of degree more than kind, perhaps.
Yes, and like I’ve said…Judaism has changed throughout the years. Could I ask a favor? Could you please restate your argument, because I think I’m missing something in it.
It’s changed very slowly… and it’s still utterly dedicated to preserving itself.
Cultures can survive through and by change, or they can survive in spite of change… and I would argue that Judaism is well in the second group. Preserving tradition because it’s tradition is not a very good long-term strategy.
I guess that was the point I wanted to make. That’s all.
And so, TVAA, I present to you the question that I asked before… what should Jews give up? Kashurs? Shabbos? Praying in synagouges? Passover? Yom Kippur? Mezzuzahs on doors?
IOW, what specifically do you think needs to be changed within Judaism?
Zev Steinhardt
The belief that tradition is sacred.
Everything else will follow, sooner or later.
But considering that our traditions (which include the Torah and it’s teachings) are central to what makes us Jews, you are again, in essence, saying that we should simply give up Judaism. If so, I’ll just have to pass, thank you very much.
Zev Steinhardt