MY apologies sorry I was so rude however I do not wish to intrude on anyone’s time unnecessarily … I had oginally stated that I was going to start a new thread to follow up on this discussion but I have decided that an already existing one of mine is better suited for this purpose
… sorry I am not sure how to do a direct link
so : HOW BIG OF A HYPOCRITE Can I BE - The Jackel 06-05-2000 In My Humble Opinion
I’m going to briefly respond to a few of the above posts:
Monty said: “In other words: Nope, you’re not listening to anyone here, not even to other believers & you’re not willing to discount the possiblity that you’re interpreting stuff and interpreting it incorrectly. Please note that I said “possibility.””
Wrong. Let me quote myself: “In cases where the Bible is QUESTIONABLE as to what it’s getting at, SURE my interpretation could be wrong!”
Let me more clearly state what I’m getting at. YES there are lots of Bible passages that may not, at first glance, be clear. And yes, two sincere believers can do a Bible study of these verses and come up with various conclusions.
I am ALWAYS learning and always will be, even 1000 years from now in heaven. I will still, even then, be learning new things about God’s truth.
What irks me is those who try to take the Bible’s CLEAR messages and obscure them behind an “interpretation” debate. I didn’t just use the silly breakfast example, but also love is patient, love is kind - a much more serious subject. If someone came to me and said, “You know, my interpretation of this is that SOMETIMES love can be IMpatient and UNkind”, that would be ridiculous. It says plainly that love is patient and kind.
Let me just say that I actually ENJOY discussing with others some of the controversial passages in the Bible, to see what they think, throw in what I think, and see if we can all together find the truth. It’s interesting…but it’s all in the context of trying to get to know God better, not to “just debate”. And we certainly don’t try to hide from or obscure the clear truths in the Bible.
slythe, two quotes from you:
1: “Can you provide any evidence, outside of the circular reasoning of “The Bible is the word of god because the Bible says that it is the word of god!”?”
That’s a big subject, worthy of discussion, but no I’m not going to dive into it right now. All I will say right now is that I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and I respect the fact that you don’t believe that.
I will say this … I quote the Bible because I believe in it’s inherent power. I’ve seen many people change their minds about the Bible based on no other evidence than the work of the Holy Spirit in their heart through the Bible. But having said that, there ARE plenty of “extra”-biblical proofs of the Bible’s historical accuracy. However, I am not a scholar or expert in those things. SOME of them I’m familiar with.
So slythe, I’m not going to try to convine you of the Bible’s accuracy. I’m just going to state clearly that I believe in it and I will use it as a source Again, I believe it’s inherent power has the ability to change hearts that are open. But maybe sometime down the road this would make a good topic on this bboard.
Quote # 2 from slythe: “FYI, personally I have trouble believing anyone who adds smiley faces to most of their messages.”
Pardon me, but I am LMBO!!! I too don’t mean that as an attack, but it’s just an honest reaction! That just cracks me up. 
(OOPS! Sorry :(). Slythe forgive me but ARE YOU SERIOUS?!? Good grief. Why do my smiles make me less credible? I put them on my posts cuz I wanna be FRIENDLY! Is that a crime?
I can just imagine telling my friends: “Yeah they’ve challenged my beliefs, the Bible, the gospel … and now they’re even telling me I SMILE TOO MUCH!!!”
Well, sorry slythe I’m not gonna stop! 
pinqy said:
“The fact that people do question the Bible IS important, in that these are honest, earnest concerns.”
I agree. In fact, I think one of the healthiest things to do is ask the Bible honest questions. You can dig out some of it’s greatest truths by doing that.
The KEY when doing this is to GIVE IT TIME. No one should ever expect an answer to just pop out of the Bible instantly. It takes study and prayer. I remember some questions I’ve asked the Bible were answered within a week. Many were answered within about 5 - 10 years. It’s a fascinating journey.
Like Proverbs 2:3-5 says “…if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.”
Jackel: “MY apologies sorry I was so rude”. Apology accepted. (oops, sorry slythe! Aah! I can’t stop!)
quote:
I actually don't get this either. You're messing with 100 years of social psychology. What gives?
:)
Dagnammit, it catches.I smile when I am happy. I frown when I am not. I cry when the need arises. In my experience, only three kinds of people smile all the time
Those who are afraid of realconfrontation, and thus try to disarm all who might oppose them with an insincere smile(“Why are you attacking me, when I’m such a friendly guy?”)
Those who are trying to distract me while their hand reaches for my wallet.
And those who think that they are lecturing to children.
Quote: “Those who are afraid of real confrontation, and thus try to disarm all who might oppose them with an insincere smile”
Well, if THIS is truly my devious motive for smiling, IT SURE HASN’T WORKED!
Quote: “I smile when I am happy. I frown when I am not. I cry when the need arises.”
Well, I smile when I am happy too. I SOMETIMES frown when I am not happy, but sometimes I smile as a CHOICE (even if I don’t feel like it) as a means of spreading cheer to those around me. This doesn’t indiciate fakery – if anyone asks me “how I’m doing” I’ll be honest. If I’m doing lousy, I’ll say so. But sometimes I “choose to be positive and cheerful” even if I don’t feel like it, because it blesses people. Well, MOST people I should say!
Look slythe, I made it through a whole post without smiling once! Well actually I WAS smiling a lot but you couldn’t see it!
my my friendofgod, you seem to be angry. don’t worry though, jesus loves you, whoever and where ever he is, so it’s ok for you to feel hurt I won’t tell you the Buddhas are smiling down on you because you are growing through learning a new enlightenment though, it’s just not my way.
FoG: That is the very question posed in the OP!!! The whole thread is about why you believe what you do over any other offerings out there. If you are unwilling to even attempt to answer that, then why chime in at all?
That naturally brings up the question of those who leave the fold to become atheists. Did the batteries run out or what? What about those who have converted to other religions? One previous poster stated that he/she had converted from Christianity to Judaism. Does that mean that the Torah is more powerful at times than the Bible? Basically, every religion and atheism as well can boast of converts if it wants to. I can’t see that as a prop for your choosing Christianity particularly as opposed to any other religion. Others claim to perceive the direct influence of the divine in their lives, and end up as Muslims. Are you going to assert that your understanding of what you have perceived is correct and superior to their understanding of what they have perceived? My guess is that you will since you seem to be fully incapable of questioning your hold on “Truth.”
soulsling … what did I say that made you think I was angry? If anything, I was cracking up at the whole “smilie” issue.
Ptahlis, you said in response to my saying that I wouldn’t defend the Bible in detail: "That is the very question posed in the OP!!! The whole thread is about why you believe what you do over any other offerings out there. If you are unwilling to even attempt to answer that, then why chime in at all? "
LOL! I had to go back and READ the OP to see what you meant! I had forgotten it. I sorta see your point, but to me the specific topic of “proving the Bible is true” is worthy of a whole entire thread. And also, I have answered the question of why I personally believe in the Bible, or at least I think I have. Tell ya what, I’ll summarize my reasons right now:
I believe in the Bible because:
- I have seen it’s power operate in my life
- I have seen it’s power in the lives of many friends
- It is full of inherent logic and answers some of the
deepest questions of mankind - Over the course of 4000+ years of writing and over 60 different authors from drastically different backgrounds, the Bible presents a unified message that doesn’t contradict itself, which is miraculous
- Finally, I believe in the Bible because it just makes sense to me that if I’m God, I’m gonna make sure that I get my thoughts down on paper where people can read them. And if I’m gonna do that, I’m gonna make sure it’s done right.
So there you go. There is a whole in-depth topic of studying archeological proofs of specific Biblical texts (ie like the walls of Jericho, which were discovered within the last 10 years in exactly the condition the Bible said they were left in), studying extra-Biblical proofs of Biblically stated historical facts, and many many more strands and aspects.
It’s an INTERESTING topic and I’ve read many things about it … but I’m no expert. The reasons I believe in the Bible are stated above, and to me, a huge topic on Biblical accuracy would actually “hijack” this topic from the original point.
Now to your other comments. You said: “That naturally brings up the question of those who leave the fold to become atheists. Did the batteries run out or what?”
LOL! Cute.
Actually in a way … yes! The batteries DO run out if you don’t recharge them. If I personally stop reading the Bible, stop communicating with the Holy Spirit … over a period of time my soul can dry up as it were, and I become more open to deception. I know you might be offended at me calling it “deception” to go any other way. If you want to know where I’m coming from on Christianity being the only Logical religion, see my initial post on this topic on page 1.
Finally, you said: “Are you going to assert that your understanding of what you have perceived is correct and superior to their understanding of what they have perceived? My guess is that you will since you seem to be fully incapable of questioning your hold on “Truth.””
All I will say is this … compare the logic of every religion. Every religion (that I know of anyway) agrees that there is a God. Every religion agrees that God is both loving and just. Every religion (again that I know of) would agree with the statement “man isn’t perfect”.
So how do you reconcile these truths? If man is imperfect he can’t enter into the presence of a perfect God. God is loving so He wants you in His presence, but if He’s truly just, how can He let you off scot free? What’s the solution?
I submit that Christianity is the only religion that logically solves this problem. I think it was on this thread that I mentioned my challenging a group of Muslims with this question years ago, and they couldn’t answer it. Go back and read my post. Someone made fun of it shortly after that by calling it a “Chick tract” or something.
You said I’m incapable of questioning my hold on ‘truth’. I have no hold on truth. God’s truth is freely available to all in the Bible, and I’m simply one of those that has chosen to accept it for what it says it is.
And I think that you should quit using the words “logic” and “logically” until you’ve obtained a full understanding of the terms. “Logic” does not mean the same as “belief”. You have a personal view as to how the Bible should be interpreted, and as to how we should live our lives. Just because this is how you see the world does NOT make it the logical choice. The rest of us have our own views of how things are, and we didn’t reach our conclusions by saying to ourselves “Gee, Friend Of God’s view is the only one that could possibly be true logically, despite everything else I’ve read on the subject by all the other religious leaders. But I think I’ll reject the truth* and live a life that makes no sense whatsoever because I don’t care if I go to hell!”
The type of lecturing(not conversing) that you have been giving us constantly works best with a captive audience of true believers who do not have their own personal experiences and depth of knowledge to draw from. Some, if not most, of us know there are different definitions for “truth”, “faith”, “logic” and “belief” and that these words are not interchangable.
Again I say, you are not talking to a bunch of people who have rejected some “truth” in favor of something else. Those people are figments of the imagination of those who write Sunday-school lessons.
-
You attribute events in your life to the power of a god. This does not make it fact that it was God, nor that the Bible is is an accurate representation of said god.
-
ditto
-
I’ll bypass the logic question for now but as for answering “some of the deepest questions of mankind,” it does not do so clearly (see all the arguments about what the Bible says on any issue), and ALL religious writings answer these “deepest questions.” You just happen to agree with the Bible’s answers.
-
Earliest writings of the Bible would be 15th century BC (traditional view) and latest would be 2nd century AD. Hardly “4000+ years.” Also, since the canon was selected by men (with or without divine help) it’s hardly miraculous that they tend to agree, as those books that do not necessarily agree were discarded.
-
God is also claimed as author/dictor or the Book of Mormon and the Qu’ran, and Krishna’s words are to be found in the Bhagavad Gita. So your argument that you believe because you’d expect God to have a book does not clarify which book.
And the mythical city of Troy has been discovered. Does this mean the events of the Illiad are true? No, it means “based on a true story.” So archeology does not prove the truth of events, and in fact contradicts much of Bible history.
Didn’t I already address this? 1st, not all variations of Buddhism or Taoism agree that there is a god. And most non-Judeo-Christian religions are polytheistic. Second, not every religion agrees that the gods are loving and just. As for “man isn’t perfect” that seems to be pretty much true, though some believe that perfection is attainable.
And I submit that Christianity is the only one which thinks it is a problem.
quote:
You mean it's not possible that Aphrodite might not come down from the sky to wrestle with me? Dang I gotta set my sights lower.Sorry, I should have said “not necessarily true.” There’s hope for you yet.
i’m stressing this one because it’s more in touch with the Hypocrisy side of things in organized religion (yes, another thread, but relative here). Christianity seems to have decided that forcing itself on everyone else will enforce as well that it must be truth, when in “fact”, not “belief”, christianity is a small part of this world, and is believed/followed by a minority. The OT and NT and all the other books in between, before and after weren’t written down 'till waaaaaay later, and even then there were so many different versions, and then so many translations (many of which were questionable) that it’s not very truthful of anyone to say that they all agree, because in fact they don’t. Sheep is definitely a good term for people like friendofgod since they refuse to see logic and truth, and close their eyes to all but what THEY decide to believe. Selective Truth? nuh uh!
I’m not saying it’s wrong to believe what you believe, on the contrary, if what you believe helps to make you a better person, then all the power to you, but at the very least, humble yourself and be honest in that it’s a belief, and for you may feel like truth, but to others, NOT YOU, its only a faith they don’t have, and they have their own faith, their own beliefs, their own reasons for accepting their own faith, and it does not include YOUR belief. Admit as well humbly that you have no FACTUAL EVIDENCE to back up anything in the OT or NT or any other “religious texts” as TRUTH, because if you did, you’d be pretty darn famous neighbor. Believe what you will, don’t cram down other peoples throats. It’s not polite, its invading. It’s not “inviting” others to share in your “truth”, it’s imposing rudely upon them. So desperate is the small religion broken into even so many smaller fragments that it must try to force others to join it, where those others who do not impose themselves on outsiders grow so swiftly and smoothly. something to think about.
**
But that doesn’t seem to jibe with the way many people convert from one religion to another, or to atheism. I submit that these things happen as a result of profound attention to the issues, not a lack of same. People don’t hop from Christianity to Judaism or any other belief because they stop reading the Bible, but because they are actively seeking answers that, for whatever reasons, they cannot find within it.
**
Well, how about grading on the curve as it were? That may sound flip, but it’s not an unsound idea to judge people according to their ability. I’m not Jewish, so I can’t provide any quotes for you but I believe that their view is basically that God doesn’t expect more from anyone that they can deliver. In other words, while your viewpoint postulates that imperfect man cannot enter into the presence of a perfect God, there is no reason to believe this is true even supposing God exists. It may be a problem defined within the Christian belief system that other religions supposedly cannot answer, but other religions (Judaism for one) do not see this as a problem to begin with. So yes, Christianity is the only religion that answers a problem it claims exists. I’ll give you that.
Okay, others have tried to point this out to you in some ways without success. I’ll give it a shot, too. On this board, in this forum, you are the one making claims, not the Bible. You are claiming that the Bible is what it purports to be. The Bible may or may not be true, and we all have our own beliefs about it, but when you come here and state categorically that it is true that is a claim (actually several) that you are making. You are claiming that your perceptions of the Bible’s accuracy is beyond reproach while anyone else’s disagreeing perceptions are necessarily false. You are also claiming that the religious experiences you have had in which God has shown you the way are true, while those who claim the same for themselves but believe in another deity are false. In short, while others say I believe such and such is true, you say it is true regardless of who believes it, and you just happen to. You don’t allow any room for the idea that you may simply be wrong. You don’t come across with Biblical truth as a statement of belief, but categorize it as a fact, and that is why I say you are incapable of questioning your hold on truth.
Perhaps you believe that stating that all your evidence is based on your perceptions would be sinful. If you believe that making a statement that might in any way be construed to mean that the Bible may not be utterly and objectively true would be sinful, then please say so.
Ok, based on my observations, here’s what I see as the reason “why the Christian God.”
-
Religion of childhood, never questioned.
-
Personal experience, perceived as miracle, attributed to god most familiar with. (or coincidence of events: individual is witnessed to, then perceives a miracle they relate to said witnessing)
-
Reading of the Bible “strikes a chord” with the individual and they are drawn to those teachings.
-
Perceived need for help outside of self or family/friends and so Christian God is either a. one most familiar/accessible, or b. views expressed agree to a large degree with pre-existing views.
-
Affection or feeling of inclusiveness inspired by a Christian sect (particular parish, ward, church) and search for answers to life continues within that context.
-
Persuaded by “witnessing.”
-
Any combination of the above.
Note: for these purposes I consider it irrelvant if “miracles” are true or merely interpreted to be Divine. The only important matter is what the individual believes them to be.
Having written these reasons, I see that they also work for any god, not just the Christian one.
pinqy
soulsling said (bottom of page 1):
The way I see it, if you truly believe in something, why wouldn’t you want to share it with others? I believe that believing in and accepting the death and resurrection of Jesus is the only way to get to heaven. (Don’t jump on me, I’m just stating what I believe.) I tell others about it, because I want them to go to heaven too. When I tell someone, that person is free to believe it or not, but if I didn’t tell them, to me, it would be the same as saying that I don’t care about what happens to them.
I know most of you don’t agree with my beliefs or what I’m saying here…I’m just trying to get across where people like me are coming from.
FriendofGod,
I would have to say I no longer consider myself a Christian BECAUSE I read the Bible. Growing up in a Christian home, I carried on the family faith. I was VERY involved in a church for over 2 years (this was recently) and began to study more of the Bible and biblical history. Certain teachings and actions ran counter to the NT (it was a pentecostal/charasmatic church). In looking for other info, I ran across the idea of annihilism vs. eternal torture in hell. From there, I went further back to see what the early church taught on these matters, all the while checking everything vs the scripture. Further investigation led me to research Judaism, as this was the faith of Jesus and their belief system, figuring it would be similar to Christianity except for the idea of the messiah. Let me tell you, what I found shocked me. After reading more of the OT and the Jewish views on things such as Satan, original sin, salavation, the nature of God, and a variety of other core beliefs, I found it ran in most ways counter to Christianity. I am now convinced that Christianity is false, based on many pagan ideas and man’s deliberate misinterpretations of OT passages to fit into their theological construct. So my conclusions where brought on by bible study, not by not enough study. I just refused to tow the christian line anymore without thought and research.
And, although I wouldn’t consider myself a member of the Jewish faith, I would say being a former Christian that Judaism is MUCH MUCH more logical than Christianity.
Pinqy,
I would say your list is pretty much dead on true.
noggins74,
quoting myself:
try again. ask permission first, if someone WANTS to hear what you have to say. People have the ability to make their own choices in life, and for the most part, think it’s pretty rude to impost upon them your decisions. How would you like it if i constantly told you about Buddhism and its “Truths” and the enlightenment you could reach, and that everything you believe is false, and that no matter what you think, you are wrong. i don’t think you would like that, and that is why i wouldn’t do it.
again
something to think about
I don’t think you understood the point I was trying to make. I never said that it was ok to shove anything down anyone’s throat. (Forcing someone to do anything is the quickest way to turn them off to it anyway.) All I was trying to say was why I feel the need to share my faith with others, because you had commented that if you truly believed something that “you wouldn’t feel the necessity to preach to others”.
I was not saying that I tie people up and make them listen. I have never made anyone talk with me about it. But if I do have the opportunity to talk with someone, I will.
I think for a Christian to not want to share their faith with someone, if given the opportunity, would be hypocritical. Again, this has nothing to do with forcing anyone to listen.
slythe and pinqy … it’s late, and I just made two long posts on the “Christianity and Love” thread. The first of these threads tries to explain better where I’m coming from on all these issues, and somewhat responds to what you (slythe) said about “logic” and other stuff. Please read, sorry I just don’t have time to repeat it right now.
Pthalis and pinqy I will try to respond to your comments sometime this weekend, especially the one about “grading on the curve”.
Going to bed.