No one is condemning gays for what they are, but for one thing they do. And no one is slandering gays by asserting they do some awful thing they don’t in fact do, because, guess what? Gay people really do have gay sex.
So if your 6 Jewish people didin fact do all that crazy shit, you (A) would not be slandering them by saying so and (B) would be perfectly within your rights to condemn them for it.
Since neither of those things are true, that’s a strikingly bad analogy, innit?
Jodi, that was directed entirely at Laurie and her half-dozen “gay” “friends”, not at you. You just had the bad fortune of managing to scooch your post in between hers and mine…
A look of shocked surprise just failed to pass across my face.
Laurie, have you ever considered the possibility that the group of homosexuals who associate with you reflects less on homosexuals as a group, and more on the type of people who would associate with you?
I get the distinct impression I’m wasting my time. I’m still waiting for you to tell me why homosexual sex is harmful or non-consensual.
‘Kinds’ in quotes, like we’re all supposed to be exactly the same?
Thanks. Many of them are right here on the boards, and I’m sure they’ll be glad of your compliments.
Maybe you know a couple of dipsticks, and all their dipstick friends. Beats me.
And they’re indent, unkind and unintelligent? One might be tempted to wonder if it just runs in the family. But I’m far too diplomatic and polite for that.
Surprisingly, most lesbians are also homosexuals.
Good for them. Much of the population is so apathetic about politics these days.
Well, I never said I did that. But then, you still haven’t told us what’s strange, unnatural, or wrong about sex with the same gender. You’ve tried to make that point by telling us how stupid and unkind the homosexuals you know are, but that doens’t really show much.
So what’s so unnatural, what’s so wrong, and what’s so strange about sex with the same gender?
Wow. I’m surprised you’d spend time hanging out with the sort of people you described up there… unkind, indecent, unintelligent… do you have a lot in common, or are you just so very interested in learning about homosexuality that you find the ones no one else would put up with?
Well, I don’t think those things… in fact, there are some mightly nice lesbians on these very boards. But of course, the opinion of the lesbians you happen to know must necessarily be the opinion of all lesbians everywhere. I’m glad you put ‘norm’ in quotes, to show the fallacy of that concept. At least we agree on something.
So, to sum up, I’m still waiting for you to show me how:
All homosexual sex is non-consensual and hurtful
and
Homosexual sex is unnatural, wrong, and strange.
Telling me how stupid your friends are and implying that all homosexuals are stupid does not prove either of these assertions.
Laurie, if you know only half a dozen or so homosexuals, you must be very young.
There is always the possibility that by some really bizarre coincidence, the homosexuals you have known all believe that they began life as heterosexuals, suffered an abuse that turned them away from heterosexuality and made them desire to have sex only with people who have the same gender. A little research into the scientific studies and information available on the internet will show you how unusual your situation is and why so many people are skeptical of the realities.
Adding to the problems with communication is that you want others to believe your anecdotal experiences but you don’t want to believe the anecdotal experiences of others – including more homosexuals here at SDMB than you’ve met in your lifetime!
I believe that I was born heterosexual and that I was aware of it by the time I was two years old. Who am I to call people liars when they say that they have always preferred people of their own genders?
Neither you nor I have lived inside that life. I have more reason to belief the people that I have known here for a year and the people that I have known over the course of a lifetime than I do secondhand from someone I haven’t gotten to know yet. That’s not a reflection on you personally.
A family friend was recently interviewed on NPR’s Fresh Air. In the interview she talks about her upbringing in a small town and about her coming out. Maybe it will give you some insight into some of the situations that I am familiar with:
If you have a link that you want me to read that you think is important to help me see your point, just post it and I will read.
Laurie, as someone who has done intense research (and conducted many, many interviews) on this subject, I can tell you that the majority of homosexuals do not say that they had any choice in the matter. Your contacts (if they even exist which I doubt) are HIGHLY atypical. The American Psychological Association, who I’m sure has studied many, many cases, does not believe that homosexuality is a choice. Why don’t you read Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality to learn more.
Futhermore, you claim that your contacts who are homosexual are impared because of their homosexuality. This has been disproven many times before.
You know, if I were to take all the gay men I know in real life, and use then to extroplate assumptions about all gay people in general, I would come to some mighty strange conclusions. For example, I would have to conclude that fully 50% of all gay men are Armenian.
Somehow, this seems unlikely.
Laurie, do you understand the concept of a “sample size,” and why it’s important to have a large one?
Oh sure, it’s easy for you to say that, but Deagan can’t help the way God made him. Bigot.
Actually, the vast majority of people I encounter directly or indirectly are “indecent, unhealthy, unkind and/or unintelligent” to some extent. These are traits far too common in humanity to blame homosexuality for them.
OTOH, most of the people I choose to spend time with are people I consider to be “decent, healthy, kind and intelligent”; this is not a statistical anomaly when you consider that that’s why I spend time with them. I realize one can’t choose one’s relatives, but maybe you need to reconsider your friendships?
Jodi–I completely understand and sympathize with your point that people who believe gayness to be sinful but who try to be kind and decent to actual gay people should not be demonized.
Wolfstu–I may be taken, but I am developing quite the crush on you, based on your wit and eloquence alone. I’m very glad to have you on our team.
Laurie–I’m not mad atcha. It’s clear that you are working through some issues and that you are very young besides. Maybe if you expand your social circle and keep your eyes open, you might meet a wider variety of people, including gay people.
I can assure that I was not raped, and that I gradually became aware of my homosexuality as you, I’m sure became aware of your heterosexuality.
Jodi, I discussed specific actions that blacks or the disabled might want to engage in (marrying and adopting children) which are completely independent of sex. I think I might have as much or more experience with these people who condemn homosexuality as you do and I can assure you that they do not say “people who engage in gay sex should not be allowed to marry.” They say “gay people should not be allowed to marry.” Their unwillingness to extend marriage to same-sex couples includes those same-sex couples who would remain celibate.
MrVisible, can I please, please, pretty please use this as a sig? It had me cracking up and then scraping Coke off my monitor for half an hour. ::: bows in homage :::
Well, I have, but only in the same ways straight people can get hurt by love.
(Yes, I have had occasion to lock myself in my room with nothing but a container of ice cream, some candles, and my entire Tori Amos collection before.)
And gay sex, like straight sex, only hurts if you do it wrong.
Ok if we are going to get into the arguement that gay sex is immoral then we ought to at least TOUCH on the fact that sex for the sake of anything except procreation is wrong. I guess those of us that can no longer have children had better stop then because we ALL be goin ta hell!!
And to think I do it because I LIKE it… heaven forbid I should do something to show my husband that I love him… Guess y’all gonna have to get behind me because I’m first in line for the down elevator!!
