Why The Incessant harping On the Crusades?

[billfish678]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Yes, because our only sources for historical events are contemporary people complaining about them. :dubious:

Uhh, way to miss the point.

When someone asks why people today are complaining about X, the point is people TODAY are complaing about X.

What people were bitching about 1000 years ago is irrelevant.

[Procrustus]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kobayashi View Post
I think it’s just an easy and unimaginative metaphor, something that everyone can understand, the West = Crusaders = bad.

Personally I always wondered why they don’t spit the same vitriol against the Mongols, who committed atrocities on even greater scale than the Crusader’s massacre in Jerusalem when they sacked Baghdad, rolling the Caliph in a carpet and trampling him to death and leaving a trail of devastation the effects of which were felt for centuries.

The Mongols have stopped this type of behavior. I guess some believe the “West” has not.

[Czarcasm]

@billfish678

Uhh, way to miss the point.

When someone asks why people today are complaining about X, the point is people TODAY are complaing about X.

What people were bitching about 1000 years ago is irrelevant.

“X” we are talking about is The Crusades. Who is complaining about them?

[El_Kabong]

I’ll freely admit I’m not reading any “muslim scholars” regularly, but the only place I’ve been hearing about “crusades” are in the statements of organizations such as Al-Queda and ISIL. In both cases, it seems they are more interested in painting any Western intervention as a new crusade, than rehashing the old ones.

[billfish678]

@Czarcasm

Don’t give a flying fuck and/or a rat’s ass about your hand-waving and goal-post shifting anymore. Do you have any evidence to back up the OP’s and your claim, or not?

The OP’s claim is that there is “incessant harping” about how muslims think they were fucked over by the crusades way back when.

My original claim was an explanation of the motivation. That probably upset you for various reason.

I never claimed it was “incessant”. For that matter define “incessant”.

I’ve heard that complaint. More that once for that matter.

So what cite do I need?

Or do you need some cite that somewhere that someone at some point said something like that?

I can probably find some cite that Hal Briston fucked the same goat Hitler did.

[Czarcasm]

@Mr.Kobayashi

I think it’s just an easy and unimaginative metaphor, something that everyone can understand, the West = Crusaders = bad.

Personally I always wondered why they don’t spit the same vitriol against the Mongols…

Which "they"s are you referring to? Give us the names of Muslim scholars that are harping about the Crusades that you think should also be harping about the Mongols.

[Mr.Kobayashi]

@Czarcasm

As of yet, those who say that this incessant harping is going on have yet to show that it is even happening at all, let alone at the volume suggested by the OP.

ISIS and Al Qaeda both use it frequently, when bin Laden called a Fatwa in 1998 it was signed by a group calling themselves “World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders”. Khalid Sheik Mohammed wrote his “Statement to the Crusaders of the Military Commissions in Guantanamo”. Last year Al Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula posted this to twitter, you could make a drinking game out of how many times they mention it;

The AQAP message, a “Statement Regarding the Crusader Coalition,” was posted on Twitter earlier today and first translated by the SITE Intelligence Group.

“Within the Crusader war on Islam, the global coalition waged a fierce campaign …
“And on this occasion, we assert our support to our brothers against the global Crusader campaign, and we are with their enmity against this campaign,” AQAP’s jihadists write.
…
“We advise all the mujahideen to forget their disputes and to stop the infighting among them, and to be diligent in pushing away the Crusader campaign that targets all,” AQAP’s jihadists write, according to SITE’s translation.

And ISIS bring it up frequently in their postings;

“We say to the states that take part in the crusader campaign that, by God, you will have a day, God willing, like France’s

Now obviously they are not “muslim scholars” as claimed by the OP, rather the ‘Crusader’ analogy is a frequent one among extremists.

[Czarcasm]

And neither is it “whining about the Crusades”. Nor is it widespread.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@billfish678

Uhh, way to miss the point.

You don’t have a point. You said something stupid and now you are posting gibberish in an attempt to defend what you said. Just admit you said something stupid or move on.

[Malthus]

I dunno about “endless carping”. It’s a theme that is picked up, mostly by extremists.

Bin Laden, for example, referred to the Crusades a lot in his writings. As an example, he entitled one of his fatwas “Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders”.

http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

The notion is that the Jews (in the form of Israel) and the Americans (in the form of US interference in Saudi Arabia) are modern-day ‘crusaders’ and so killing them in order to free the holy sites under their control is a defensive religious war.

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies – civilians and military – is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, “and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,” and “fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah.”

Similar imagery is found in the Hamas Charter:

Article Fifteen

     When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty 

binding on all Muslims. In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by
the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. This would
require the propagation of Islamic consciousness among the masses on all
local, Arab and Islamic levels. We must spread the spirit of Jihad among
the [Islamic] Umma, clash with the enemies and join the ranks of the Jihad

fighters.

     The 'ulama as well as educators and teachers, publicity and media

men as well as the masses of the educated, and especially the youth and
the elders of the Islamic Movements, must participate in this raising of
consciousness. There is no escape from introducing fundamental changes in
educational curriculi in order to cleanse them from all vestiges of the
ideological invasion which has been brought about by orientalists and
missionaries. That invasion had begun overtaking this area following the
defeat of the Crusader armies by Salah a-Din el Ayyubi(37). The Crusaders
had understood that they had no way to vanquish the Muslims unless they
prepared the grounds for that with an ideological invasion which would
confuse the thinking of Muslims, revile their heritage, discredit their
ideals to be followed by a military invasion. That was to be in
preparation for the Imperialist invasion, as in fact [General] Allenby(38)
acknowledged it upon his entry to Jerusalem: “Now, the Crusades are over.”
General Gouraud(39) stood on the tomb of Salah a-Din and declared: 'We
have returned, O Salah-a-Din!" Imperialism has been instrumental in
boosting the ideological invasion and deepening its roots, and it is still
pursuing this goal. All this had paved the way to the loss of Palestine.
We must imprint on the minds of generations of Muslims that the
Palestinian problem is a religious one, to be dealt with on this premise.
It includes Islamic holy sites such as the Aqsa Mosque, which is
inexorably linked to the Holy Mosque(40) as long as the Heaven and earth
will exist, to the journey of the Messenger of Allah(41), be Allah’s peace
and blessing upon him, to it, and to his ascension from it(42).
“Dwelling one day in the Path of Allah is better than the entire
world and everything that exists in it. The place of the whip of
one among you in Paradise is better than the entire world and
everything that exists in it. [God’s] worshipper’s going and
coming in the Path of Allah is better than the entire world and
everything that exists in it…” (Told by Bukhari, Muslim,
Tirmidhi and Ibn Maja)(43)

     I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammed! I

indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill,
assault and kill, assault and kill (told by Bukhari and Muslim(44)).

http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm

Why this focus on the Crusades? Because, to these extremists, the Crusades are just part of a grand design that has been going on ever since - in which the Crusades were merely a starting-point for anti-Muslim attacks.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Extremists, sure. Bit of a stretch from there to the OP’s “muslim scholars,” though.

[billfish678]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

You don’t have a point. You said something stupid and now you are posting gibberish in an attempt to defend what you said. Just admit you said something stupid or move on.

Explain that. Or why you think that.

Seriously. Explain why you think whatever I said is stupid. Be sincere about it and I will sincerely respond.

Don’t fill it with lame “gotchas” or whatevers like Czarcasm is doing his best at and I will sincerely respond in kind.

Keep in mind my computer access is about to go down for awhile so don’t get butthurt if I don’t come back right away.

[Czarcasm]

@Malthus

I dunno about “endless carping”. It’s a theme that is picked up, mostly by extremists.

Bin Laden, for example, referred to the Crusades a lot in his writings. As an example, he entitled one of his fatwas “Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders”.

http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

The notion is that the Jews (in the form of Israel) and the Americans (in the form of US interference in Saudi Arabia) are modern-day ‘crusaders’ and so killing them in order to free the holy sites under their control is a defensive religious war.

Similar imagery is found in the Hamas Charter:

http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm

Why this focus on the Crusades? Because, to these extremists, the Crusades are just part of a grand design that has been going on ever since - in which the Crusades were merely a starting-point for anti-Muslim attacks.

Thank you for that research. Now we know that it is focused on by extremist factions, not Muslim scholars. If one is indeed hearing things like this all the time, perhaps one should either listen to more moderate Muslims…or less fanatical right-wing pundits.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Don’t fill it with lame “gotchas” or whatevers like Czarcasm is doing his best at and I will sincerely respond it kind.

Fair enough. The OP posted a false premise. Czarcasm - whatever you may think of him - correctly pointed it out. You then attempted to support the OP’s premise but never managed to post anything that actually did so, other than vague allusions to things you hear. In essence, you gave us an almost perfect demonstration of confirmation bias (since I am guessing you don’t spend a lot of time reading the Hamas charter).

[Czarcasm]

@billfish678

Explain that. Or why you think that.

Seriously. Explain why you think whatever I said is stupid. Be sincere about it and I will sincerely respond.

Don’t fill it with lame “gotchas” or whatevers like Czarcasm is doing his best at and I will sincerely respond in kind.

Keep in mind my computer access is about to go down for awhile so don’t get butthurt if I don’t come back right away.

Rather hear about those you heard those “Crusade” claims from.

[Malthus]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Extremists, sure. Bit of a stretch from there to the OP’s “muslim scholars,” though.

I don’t think that premise can be supported. From what I’ve read, excessive reference to the crusades (“incessant harping” if you will ) appears to be the hallmark of violent extremists, not “Muslim Scholars”.

Or at least, that’s what I would conclude.

[billfish678]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Fair enough. The OP posted a false premise. Czarcasm - whatever you may think of him - correctly pointed it out. You then attempted to support the OP’s premise but never managed to post anything that actually did so, other than vague allusions to things you hear. In essence, you gave us an almost perfect demonstration of confirmation bias (since I am guessing you don’t spend a lot of time reading the Hamas charter).

Fair enough again (sorta).

Seriously, be specific and not reactionary.

Again, do you actually NEED a cite that somewhere, somehow, I heard/read/(most likely on the internet) that someone who is a Muslim (or well pretending to be one if we REALLY get pedantic) is bitching about how the crusades fucked them over? Or some other person noting that Muslims getting “fucked over” by the Crusades is why some Muslims are pissed?

And again, this is the sorta stuff I know I “heard” somewhere because it is the kinda stupid shit I would have never come up with on my own.

Now if you want to argue “incessant” or “many muslims” or “scholars” actually means have at it.

[Iggy]

For a board committed to fighting ignorance this should be an easy one.

Google search on “the Crusades” and selected for news shows…

Washington Post Dec 5, 2015 Opinion piece: The Islamic State’s members believe they are fighting a new Crusade. They’re wrong.

As noted in that piece,

When the Islamic State justified its attacks on Paris as a response to a French “Crusader campaign,” the group was taking part in a long-held tradition of the Muslim Middle East, that of viewing relations between Islam and the West through the lens of medieval events.

Indeed, Americans may be surprised to learn that they are routinely tagged as “crusaders” by Islamists. The 9/11 attacks were the result of a fatwa declared by Osama bin Laden “against the Jews and the Crusaders.”

Simple enough. ISIS and al Qaeda have taken the view that continued involvement of the West in the Middle East, whether colonialism of the past centuries or modern political and cultural ties, is an ongoing continuation of the Crusades from long ago.
American Thinker Nov 24, 2015 A note on equating the Crusades with ISIS: Don’t. by Drew Belsky

This piece notes comparisons made between ISIS of today and the Christian Crusades of medieval times and argues the two are not equivalent.
Time magazine Nov 16, 2015 What the Paris Attacks ‘Mastermind’ Once Told an ISIS Magazine

{Abdelhamid} Abaaoud has also been linked to the foiled attack on an August train between Brussels and Paris. In the 7th issue of the Dabiq magazine, Abaaoud (named Abū ‘Umar al-Baljīkī in the interview), talked about how he and other ISIS members traveled to Europe. “Allah chose me, Abuz-Zubayr al-Baljīkī (Khālid), and Abū Khālid al-Baljīkī (Sufyān) to travel to Europe in order to terrorize the crusaders waging war against the Muslims. As you know, Belgium is a member of the crusader coalition attacking the Muslims of Iraq and Shām,” he said.

bolding mine

President Obama has made statements drawing an equivalency between ISIS and the Crusades. During a prayer breakfast on Feb 5, 2015 Obama said:

…
We see sectarian war in Syria, the murder of Muslims and Christians in Nigeria, religious war in the Central African Republic, a rising tide of anti-Semitism and hate crimes in Europe, so often perpetrated in the name of religion.

So how do we, as people of faith, reconcile these realities – the profound good, the strength, the tenacity, the compassion and love that can flow from all of our faiths, operating alongside those who seek to hijack religious for their own murderous ends?

Humanity has been grappling with these questions throughout human history. And lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ.
…

Obama’s remarks were criticizedby historians

“I don’t think the president knows very much about the crusades,” Thomas Madden, a historian at the University of St. Louis, told ABC News.

“He seems to be casting them as an example of a distortion of Christianity and trying to compare that to what he sees as a distortion of Islam in the actions of ISIS,” Madden said. “The initial goal of the Crusades was to give back lands to Christians that had been conquered, due to Muslim conquests.”

Plenty of other comparisons being drawn that are easily found.

[billfish678]

@Malthus

I don’t think that premise can be supported. From what I’ve read, excessive reference to the crusades (“incessant harping” if you will ) appears to be the hallmark of violent extremists, not “Muslim Scholars”.

Or at least, that’s what I would conclude.

So, in other words Muslims. Or at least the Muslims that are causing problems.

PS. I am glad some other posters here are actually giving good info and are not engaged in some sort of pissing contest.

Double PS. Obama said it. That might be good enough for me.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Iggy, I’m not seeing any “muslim scholars” in there.

Again, do you actually NEED a cite that somewhere, somehow, I heard/read/(most likely on the internet) that someone who is a Muslim (or well pretending to be one if we REALLY get pedantic) is bitching about how the crusades fucked them over? Or some other person noting that Muslims getting “fucked over” by the Crusades is why some Muslims are pissed?

I need something other than your assertion that you “heard about the Crusades a lot more than you should,” yes. It would be better if you provided a citation that “muslim scholars” are doing it, since that is the claim you were defending even if it wasn’t yours.