It may be that someone quoted what I said a little out of context. I didn’t say “justifiable.” But that’s the thing with ire; a deeper emotion takes root, and you’ll banally utter what you may not choose to utter in normal circumstances. I, for example, will freely admit that if it were a gay instead of a fattie, I may utter, “stupid fggt.” Similarly “stupid nggr.” And so on. No, this is not socially acceptable behavior, any more than utterances about fat. But in a forum like this, it’s a lot easier to talk about references to fatty than to “those damn Jews.” In one case I’m a homophobic racist. In the other, what’s the crime? It’s just fat people. We’re a descriptive people, and in circumstances where we want to express ire and a description, the most obvious physical trait comes right into our thoughts, nice or not – remember, we’re not using reason; it’s a crime of passion.
And this attitude is exactly the point of the OP.
Okay, fine. The one characteristic in my list that is clearly nothing more than a choice is “Protestant.” I can posit that the fact that someone is a Protestant is clear evidence of a host of intellectual defects. The fact that this is a choice, means that every Protestant, simply by displaying the characteristic “Protestant,” is a mental defective. Thus, I can feel free to make vitriolic insulting comments about any Protestant that pisses me off.
Oh, so anyone who violates your personal sartorial sense is just asking for nasty behaviour? This is the credo of the asshole.
Back to Crafter_Man –
Accept that sufficient exercise and diet control will make any fat person thin. The rest of your thesis does not follow –
- Show that failure to engage in sufficient exercise and diet control to eliminate fatness is sufficient to conclude “lazy and lacking personal discipline.”
- Accepting that, show that someone who is too lazy and lacking in personal discipline to eliminate fatness is necessarily lazy and lacking in personal discipline with regard to everything else in life (or, to rephrase, that someone who is lazy and lacking in personal discipline with regard to one particular aspect of life is necessarily lazy and lacking in personal discipline with regard to every aspect of life.
- Accepting that, show that it follows that it is okay to hold in contempt someone who is lazy and lacking in personal discipline as a general characteristic (as opposed to a specific act that deserves condemnation) and that it is thus okay to engage in verbal abuse about that person.
Nearly every damn person does something that potentially results in higher medical bills – smoking? driving? speeding? riding in a car without a seatbelt? pushing the yellow light? living in a smoggy area? living near an industry that pollutes? living in a flood plain? working in a building with asbestos? working in a stressful job? having a tendency to become overstressed in situations? overworking? jogging too much (bad for the knees)? playing soccer (bad for the knees)? playing football (bad for the knees)? playing the violing (bad for the neck, back, and arms)? working in a job that requires a lot of standing (bad for the back)? working a cash register (bad for the hands and wrists)? working on a keyboard (bad for the hands and back)?
Life is full of health risks. The point of health insurance is that collective payment makes sure that no one person gets hit with killer expenses when we know that some percentage of people will.
Life may be full of health risks, but obesity costs a ton.
http://www.rti.org/page.cfm?objectid=4CDB8DC2-6720-4FBF-806A064BB32DD00B
I don’t know why not. I’m a Protestant who went to a Catholic high school and nearly every day after hearing about transubstantiation I would mutter something about “them friggin’ Catholics”. It didn’t make me hate Catholics, just as I don’t hate fatties. But I still don’t agree with their lifestyle. It’s their choice to live that way, but I can’t see one reason why I just have to accept it without question or complaint.
I guess the difference is that when someone cuts you off in traffic, you’ll never shout “FUCKIN’ PROTESTANT!” at them. But if a fat dude at a movie theater is cramping you and touching you with his fatness, of course you’ll be pissed off about their disregard for their health and your comfort.
I don’t believe I ever said all fatties were asking for nasty behavior. I think I said that if they didn’t want insults, stares, and predjudice, they should work harder to not be fat anymore. If they’re content with the insults, stares, and predjudice, then more power to 'em.
Permission to vomit?
Many of the arguments being presented here would be socially untenable if applied, for instance, to gay people. Some folks object to their “lifestyle choice,” too, and point to the cost of AIDS research and treatment as a justification for public insults, harassment, and worse.
Can you imagine anyone thinking it’s OK to say “I don’t believe I ever said all homos were asking for nasty behavior. I think I said that if they didn’t want insults, stares, and predjudice [sic], they should work harder to not be gay anymore. If they’re content with the insults, stares, and predjudice [sic], then more power to 'em”?
Again, one doesn’t choose to be gay. Most fat people are fat because they don’t want to change it.
On the other hand, if a gay person walked around completely flaming gay with rainbow stickers on their jackets and “I’m GAY!” bumper stickers on their car, then they can’t be too upset when someone immediately draws conclusions about this person’s lifestyle.
Listen, whatever people want to do, I don’t give a shit. That’s their choice. I also don’t agree with the life of a stoner who goes around smelling like pot wearing marijuana leaf t-shirts on, but that stoner shouldn’t get pissed off when someone calls them on it or does a bad stoner impression in their presence.
you know… I am much more annoyed with the “lifestyle” excuse for fat prejudice than I am with fat people. That’s an unhealthy attitude to have…
Yes gratuitous name calling indeed exists and it is obnoxious. I was only saying that when people are angry with someone because that someone is acting like a total jerk, they will often find a feature about that person to rant about because of their anger. That is not gratuitous. It is just lashing out at an asshole. Still, not exactly Buddha-like behavior, but how many of us have mastered our emotions to the point that we would never say anything mean about a total prick that is fucking with us?)
And as a matter of fact I am technically obese. (The BMI chart says so, but I really only look “overweight”.)
For Crafter_Man, wasson, I Love Me, Vol. i, and other posters who feel that it really is no more difficult than eating less and exercising more, please consider the following questions. If you can provide thoughtful, in-depth answers, I will be happy to cut you some slack. Otherwise, I ask you to please reconsider your stance, as you may not have all the facts necessary to support it:
- What percentage of the female American population has Polycystic Ovarian Disease, and how does this disorder affect the endocrine system?
- What bearing does insulin have on hunger?
- What is the relationship between hyperinsulemia and insulin tolerance, and what effect does it have on adipose tissue?
- What is the “thifty gene” hypothesis and why does it bear mentioning in this context?
- How many more Americans can be considered overweight or obese now compared to 100 years ago? What portion of this change is directly attributable to personal traits of laziness and lack of self-discipline that were not present 100 years ago?
- What medication or therapy has been shown to successfully alter the behavior, eating, or coping patterns of obese people?
- Describe the two populations of Pima Indians and why their health profiles are so different.
- What is the most effective treatment known today for losing weight and keeping it off for more than three years? What are the sucess rates for other treatments?
- Define “affluenza” and analyze its effects on public health.
- Explain the effect of Wellbutrin on brain chemistry and neurotransmitter receptors and why the drug is now being used to treat depression, nicotine withdrawal, and obesity.
I’m actually not expecting an answer. These are all difficult questions - ones I’ve taken the time to research because of my own obesity and other health issues - and I doubt any of the posters I’ve mentioned really feels the need to do that kind of research. It’s so much more comfortable - easier and gratifying - to let closely held prejudices lay unexamined.
BTW, mattmorgan64, your “joke” was trite, humorless, and crass. It exemplifies the callous disregard that the OP started this thread to discuss. In the future, please try to restrain yourself.
OK, my suspicion that you’re a thin person who just doesn’t understand didn’t pan out. I apologize for mistaking you for someone who hasn’t fought this battle.
You’re trying to make the case that insults, stares, and predjudice are acceptable. They’re not. They reflect badly on the people who use them as well as the people who defend them.
I’m fat, I have a BMI over 30, and I like my body. I get the occasional insult hurled at me but it’s usually from high school kids in a speeding car. Nobody has looked me in the eye and insulted my weight since I was a kid. This is more because of my size (I’m over six feet tall) than politeness, people feel free to insult fat women far more frequently.
There are advantages to being fat. Cold doesn’t bother me, I enjoy being outdoors in temperatures and attire that would kill a “normal” person. The muscle I developed just doing my normal daily activities is far more than lazy skinny people have. If I need to I can push-start a school bus, I know this because I’ve done it.
Notice I said I was fat, not out of shape. I walk at least four miles a day and usually do considerably more. I posted on Straight Dope about my 64 mile total for a week and I’ve since topped it. I have a resting heart rate in the low fifties and my other numbers (Cholesterol and the like) are all just fine.
While you may think you’re doing a public service by trying to taunt fat people into losing weight you’re really missing the point. The “obesity epidemic” is really a sedentary epidemic. The thin lazy person who never exercises has almost as much chance of heart disease and the other illnesses mentioned earlier (with one exception) as his fat counterpart. The anger may come from denial, “My health is fine, cause I’m not fat” but the sedentary lifestyle will catch them all.
When I read the stuff posted by wasson and the others on his side in this thread, I amuse myself with a little fantasy. I’ll challenge any of you fat-bashers (or fat-basher defenders in wasson’s case) to a contest. We start walking and the first one to stop loses. If you win, big deal, you outwalked a fat guy. If you lose then you will be mercilessly taunted by the fat guy.
If you’re thinking of taking this challenge, be warned, I can do at least thirty miles.
Oh, totally.
When given a choice between:
- Being treated like a human being and being judged on your merits
vs.
- Being invisible in society, discriminated against and yelled at/spit on by people in passing cars,
Who the hell would want to lose the weight? Being fat just has too many great things to offer!
:rolleyes:
I think part of the reason for targetting fat people, as opposed to any other group, is because for the most part fat people don’t enjoy being fat. This is in regards to all the posts about “I don’t like fat people because they are just lazy, it’s self-inflicted”, as compared with other self-inflicting “problems”. There have been some posts relating this to gays, smokers, etc etc. I think the difference here is that gay people enjoy being gay, smokers enjoy smoking, they don’t want to change. Most of the posts in this thread from people that say they are overweight also say that they would prefer not to be, that they don’t get any enjoyment from it. Such isn’t the case for many other self-inflicting groups.
kinoons: In an ideal world, that is a great answer. However, the majority of EMS systems in our nation are as overworked as the rest of our health care system. Getting more people on the scene can me [? be?] an issuie. […] The time we are going to be injured is when getting the person onto the bed. Then we have to bend and reach. Also remember, when doing so it takes much less weight to cause back injury.
I understand, and sympathize. However, I still think that in the real world, it’s more realistic to push for EMS policy changes in the rules for handling patients, so that medics are less likely to risk serious injury with patients who are very heavy, than it is to expect that the percentage of very heavy people will drop dramatically any time soon. And certainly, just vilifying fat people (not suggesting that you or EMT’s in general would do that) is no use at all when it comes to protecting your back.
This sounds like a situation where some good old mechanical ingenuity could be literally a lifesaver, or at least a back-saver. Hasn’t some clever medic somewhere come up with some kind of “jack” or “booster” device to help ease the strain of maneuvering a very heavy patient onto a gurney?
wasson: * I think I said that if they didn’t want insults, stares, and predjudice, they should work harder to not be fat anymore.*
Er, no. Subjecting other people to “insults, stares, and prejudices” because of their physical appearance is RUDE. You don’t get excused for grossly rude behavior on the grounds that the targets of your rudeness could change their appearance if they wanted to.
It’s not their responsibility to make sure that their appearance conforms to your personal tastes. It’s your responsibility, as a civilized person, to refrain from being rude to them because you don’t like their appearance.
Listen, I never said it was perfectly fine and acceptable to be rude to and bash fat people. Let’s look at another example since you all seem to be taking this so personally.
Let’s say, for the sake of argument, I love smoking pot. It’s awesome. To show my support of this plant, I wear a marijuana leaf t-shirt everywhere I go, hemp bracelets, and dreads. Much to my dismay, when I wear this to the mall, people laugh and call me a dope head. Cops look at me funny when I walk by them.
Now I have an important decision to make. Is it more important to me to continue wearing this gear and get the looks, or would it be better to dress more “normally”, smoke pot on my own time, and avoid the stares, insults, and predjudice?
I’m not saying its okay to pre-judge anyone. I’m just saying that it absolutely happens, and more often than we’d like to admit. Not just about fat people. People will draw conclusions about you no matter what. Most of the time, people strive to make these conclusions positive, by wearing nice clothes and combing their hair and wearing deodorant.
In the case of fat people, its hard to look at them and not assume they’re lazy and lack discipline. Now fat people have a decision to make… is it more important for them to show people they’re not lazy, or is it more important to stay fat?
If they make the decision to stay fat, then they have to deal with the prejudice of others. Just like the stoner who has to decide whether to change t-shirts. Fat, like a t-shirt, can be removed if people want to take the time and energy to do so. Removing the fat will insure a more positive image when you first meet people.
I never said all fat people are fat because of laziness. I, and hopefully everyone, realize that isn’t the case. But I’d say more than 99% of fat people are fat simply because they’re too lazy to change.
It’s not a perfect world. Everyone is going to be judged on looks alone as they walk down the street. You can either accept the way you’re judged or try to change yourself to not be judged so harshly. Thems the breaks.
I am not sure what you are trying to get at with this one. Junk food is much more prevelant, jobs are much less physically demanding, among other things. The increasing rise of obesity in the United states is due to increased variety of food, an increase in availability of junk food, a decrease in activity due to things like computers and television.
Your other points are slightly off tangent. Sounds like you are merely throwing big words aroung to try to impress the opposition. Or are you suggesting that there is an increase in percentage of people with medical disorders not including type II diabetes- which can arguably be argued that an increase in this disorder is due to the rising prevelance of obesity?
They are not that difficult questions, but what they are is a red herring.
The point is that people in the past didn’t have to go out of their way to control their diet and get exercise beyond what their job and other daily activities required them. Is it fair to conclude that because people must now make an extra effort – effort that has not been programmed by millennia of evolution – that the failure to make that extra effort → lazy and lacking in personal discipline?
You need to get off your high horse, buddy. Just because you had the right conditions and motivations to eat right and exercise for a year, doesn’t mean that everyone has the same motivations or circumstances.
You know damn well that it’s hard to lose weight, as I do. I’m in about the same boat as you- I lost 70 lbs myself, and gained some back, and am working on losing it again.
There are people out there who for whatever reason, don’t have the time to spend working out (overtime, kids, being caregiver to somebody). There are people who just flat-out don’t know what a healthy diet is or what healthy portions are. Those things are learned, my friend, not some kind of instinctive knowledge we’re born with.
Then there’s the time angle. It took you a year to drop 70 lbs. It took me almost that long. It’s not a matter of simple laziness to be unable to keep up something like a serious weight loss program for a year, when you consider that you’re having to ration something you HAVE TO DO to stay alive every day for something like a year, just for 70 lbs. What if you’d weighed 350 lbs? You’d have lost that 70 lbs, and STILL weighed 280. That’s really gratifying, I’ll bet, to be still pretty big after working so hard for so long. Is it any wonder people don’t always follow through?
And then I’d be willing to be that most fat people probably could be diagnosed with some kind of eating disorder, if people didn’t just assume they’re lazy. I mean really, if you’re starving yourself or puking, you’re anorexic or bulimic and people are sympathetic. If you eat too much for similar reasons, you’re considered a lazy gluttonous shit.
And finally, the thing that irks me the most is that smokers and alcoholics are viewed as people with a disease or problem, and get a lot of sympathy for their problems and attempts to quit. When was the last time you heard of someone being called lazy or anything of the kind for failing to quit smoking or drinking? Yet you see it all over the place with fat people, and I’ll argue that it’s probably harder to lose significant weight than to quit smoking or drinking.
I wouldn’t ever say a person is fat because they are lazy or lack personal discipline, so I certainly hope people don’t think that is my stance. I am merely arguing that losing weight from a physical perspective, IS as easy as eating less than you burn. I am aware that there are other physical and psychological problems that make it personally harder to deal with the weight loss procedure. That doesn’t mean that the process of losing weight (from a physics standpoint like what I am arguing) is not as simple as burn more than you consume.
But, then again, it has been mentioned SEVERAL times already by the posters mentioned above that they are not referring to the few people with medical problems.