Oops, I forgot to add in my response to your post. Yes, I feel that it is necessary in todays world to make an extra effort. I have to, otherwise I jump up past the 200lb mark rather quickly. Like I mentioned above, I don’t agree with the failure to make the effort is lazy or lacking in PD. I think it needs to be done, but that is like calling somebody lazy that doesn’t want to run a marathon. Both are hard (but running a marathon is as simple as to keep running until it is over), but both are above the call of duty.
I applaud those that are comfortable with the way they are. I also applaud those that wish to better themselves physically as well as mentally, and putting in the extra effort to lose weight or gain weight (depending on the situation). I don’t like hearing people make fun of fat people, but I also don’t like hearing obese people tell me it is impossible for them to lose weight. It isn’t. No matter what your condition. It is just hard.
Sure, in the same way that everyone wears deodorant now when no one did 200 years ago (or at least I assume they didn’t). Nowadays we have to put forth an extra effort to not smell like shit? That’s not fair, is it? But you want people to assume that you have good personal hygiene, so you’ll spend the money on deodorant which isn’t in any way beneficial to your health, but it helps people assume you take care of yourself and doesn’t offend their nose when they walk near you.
So now you’re making excuses for people to not better their life, better their health, and be happier? Fine, that’s their perogative.
But If I weighed 350 pounds and lost 70, I suspect I’d be a whole lot happier and healthier than I was before. I’d probably keep at it. If I got frustrated and stopped, then I think that would show I lacked discipline.
Plus, fat people who try to stop being fat get a lot of support from people, just as alcoholics and smokers do. When I lose weight, my friends and family tell me I look healthier. My office is throwing a “Biggest Loser” contest which revolves around weight loss in teams. I don’t see your point on this issue at all. I think whenever people are trying to better themselves and their health, they’ll get support.
It takes almost no effort to buy deodorant and apply it to one’s armpits.
What effort does it take to defy years of conditioning and millennia of evolution to change one’s eating and exercise patterns, when your body and mind are objecting at every turn?
What would be the point of so much support and encouragement if it took no more than ordinary non-laziness and personal discipline to stick to such a program?
Remember the proposition that is being discussed here –
Q: Why is it okay to hate fat people? A: Because being fat is a sign of laziness and lack of personal discipline.
How does your experience with losing weight fit into this rubric, Wasson?
I don’t think it’s O.K. to “hate” fat people simply for being fat. But as I stated in some earlier posts, it is my opinion that a person who is overweight is also lazy and/or lacks self-control. These are atributes I find very unappealing.
One can “agree” with an opinion or a proposition. What does it mean to “agree” with a lifestyle or a choice? It’s meaningless.
Who’s asking you to “agree with” or “accept” someone else’s choices? This is a free society; everyone has the right to make his or her own choices. This seems to guarantee that for any one person, the majority of people in the society will have made a contradictory choice of one kind or another. A mature, civilized person doesn’t have to “agree with” or “accept” someone else’s choices. They have nothing to do with you. You have no business either accepting them or not accepting them.
Because it’s none of your damn business that someone else has chosen to be Catholic – how’s that for a reason?
Prove that people are fat because of a disregard for their health and your comfort, especially given that most fat people don’t want to be fat.
And of course if being fat is a sufficient condition to conclude “lazy and lacking in self control,” then of course you’d never hire a fat person or vote for a fat person for public office, right? Because you wouldn’t want someone working for you or holding a position of responsibility who’s lazy and lacking in self control? Is that right?
First off, “years of conditioning” is wrong. 100 years ago, people worked more active jobs, but they also ate a whole lot better. There was no such thing as fast food. They ate smaller portions and healthier food.
Years of conditioning and evolution made us entirely able to never eat at a restaurant or fast food joint either. Or eat food with additives and preservatives. So do that if you’re so opposed to exercise.
So today, people are eating more, eating worse, and are less active. This isn’t healthy. You need to put forth effort to be healthy. Moreso than in the past. This may not be “fair”, or “easy”, but that doesn’t mean its not worth doing.
How does my experience with weight loss fit into it? I think I answered that. No, it’s not easy at all, but I lost 70 pounds by jogging 45 minutes per night and watching what I ate for a year. This doesn’t mean I never went out to eat or had a beer… I certainly did those things during my weight loss. But I also exercised to compensate. Losing weight was a hard and long road for sure, but in the end I’m happier, healthier, I’ll live longer, I’m at less risk for diabetes, high blood pressure, etc. Because I’m in better shape, I can eat more than I did while losing weight and still maintain. I don’t get winded walking the 5 flights of stairs to the top of my office building. I like being able to go biking and rollerblading with my friends and keep up. Was it hard? Sure it was. Was it worth it? Absofuckinglutely.
Plus, that 45 minutes spent jogging every night gave me extra energy for the rest of the day. I sleep much less than I did before. I actually have more time in the day since I started getting in shape. Yes, I consider people who don’t make the “sacrifice” of exercising to stay thin and fit lazy and undisciplined.
Which is not to say I didn’t slip. I did. I gained back a sizeable chunk of my weight by spending too much time drinking beer and getting too comfortable in a relationship. I consider myself lazy and undisciplined for that era as well. I should have known better. Now I need to lose again, which is way harder than maintaining.
This is exactly my point! Thanks for proving it! You’ve been doing nothing but making excuses as to why you’re fat (I’m assuming you’re overweight), when I think your time would be better spent exercising or shopping for healthier alternatives to food. Let’s face the facts… most people are fat because they ate more food than they were able to burn off for many days, weeks, months, and years. That shows lack of discipline. Trying to justify this instead of correcting it shows laziness.
Most fat people don’t have to be fat. If they don’t want to be, they can change. They don’t have to simply make excuses for their waistline and get mad when people point it out.
All I’m trying to say (and several others as well) is that losing weight/being fat isn’t as simple as “Eat less, exercise more”. There are a LOT of physical and mental factors that weigh against it. If it was easy, you wouldn’t see many fat people around.
I think you’re a little touchy about this- you’re saying that if you lost 70 lbs on the way to trying to lose 100-120 lbs, and something got in the way, then you’d lack discipline? Ridiculous. And you might be happy about losing it, but you’d still be FAT, and people would still point and moo, or make comments like “Hey big guy…” etc…
I can tell you the reason I gained back a lot of the weight I lost- Graduate school. Between the weird hours, constant stress and irregular schedule I had, I found it almost impossible to keep a regular workout schedule and eat like I should have. Lack of discipline? Hardly. I had enough discipline to get 2 Master’s degrees in 3 years with mostly A grades. I just wasn’t as concerned with concentrating that hard on staying thin.
Lots of people have crazy jobs without regular schedules, children, overtime, sick loved ones to take care of, etc… and working out and eating right just isn’t nearly as easy as you make it sound.
And then there’s portion sizes. Many people grew up with the “clean your plate” mentality. That’s fine, so long as the portion sizes are reasonable. But… if you don’t know how exactly to regulate those, or you eat out a fair amount, then you’re eating a lot more than you intended right there.
Yes, you did say it’s “perfectly fine and acceptable to be rude to and bash fat people.” This whole post amounts to saying “If you’re different enough for me to scorn, either change to match my standards, or bend over and take it.”
Also, you say " more than 99% of fat people are fat simply because they’re too lazy to change." Cite?
People hate fat people for the same reason that they hate the prideful, the vain, the wrathful, the envious, and the greedy.
They’re guilty of sloth and gluttony, two of the Seven Deadly Sins.
You’re twice as bad as those of use who only have one of the Seven.
That’s why God Hates You, too!
And for the rare cases that aren’t fat because of sloth & gluttony, we need to hate you too to make sure we get the ones who are slothful and gluttonous.
No, seems to me you are saying that Eating less and exercising more isn’t EASY. Simple is not the antonym to hard. Simple is the antonym to complex. Simple things can be very difficult to do, and complex things can be effortless. STOP confusing the two.
Losing weight is as SIMPLE as eating less and exercising more. It may not be easy, but it is simple.
Losing weight isn’t easy at all. But the concept of it is… eat less, exercise more. That’s how you do it. I didn’t know crap about nutrition or portion sizes before I started. I had to look it up so I would know what I was doing. Ignorance isn’t an excuse.
I’m sorry you slipped in your weight loss. I know its hard to stay disciplined under some circumstances, but… um… that’s sort of the definition of discipline. To keep doing something even when its difficult. See it through to the end and all that.
That’s not at all what I said. I said its wrong, and we shouldn’t do it. But I also said that IT WILL HAPPEN NO MATTER WHAT. Complaining isn’t going to change it. So you’ve got 2 options if you’re overweight. 1. Be overweight but still happy and confident and don’t worry about the insults, staring, and judgements. 2. Lose the weight so you don’t have to deal with it anymore. Either one you choose to do is fine with me.
My point is that no matter what you do, you’re going to be judged immediately by almost everyone on the planet. I’m not the bad guy fatty basher. I know how hard it is to go from fat to thin, but I also realize its worth the effort. And yes, I do believe if you’re fat and hate being fat but would rather make excuses than go jogging, then you’re lazy and undisciplined. That doesn’t mean I hate you either… I have plenty of lazy and undisciplined friends. I’m just pointing out what should be obvious.
“Years” of conditioning refers to the conditioning of an individual from birth to adulthood. It can play a significant role in an individual’s habits and may make it difficult to change such habits.
They ate better because they didn’t have a choice. Any anthropologist will tell you that given a choice, humans are evolutionarily predisposed towards eating high-calorie, high-fat, high-fat foods in whatever quantities are available. Prior to the modern era, these kinds of foods happened to be the hardest to obtain.
Have I once said that I am opposed to exercise? Please show me where. Have I once said that exercise is not beneficial, that it doesn’t help one obtain better health, fitness, and, indeed, weight loss? Please show me where.
The question is not that we don’t know how to lose weight, the question is whether it’s easy to do so and whether failure to achieve weight loss is sufficient to conclude that one is lazy and lacking in personal discipline (or self control).
This is one of the points several people here have been making.
Has anyone in this discussion said that it is unfair that one has to diet and excercise in order to lose weight?
This is one of the points several people here have been making.
Please show me where anyone has said the opposite.
No, you didn’t. The proposition is this:
Q: Why is it legitimate to hold a negative bias towards fat people? A: Because (1) they choose to be fat and (2) are fat only because they are lazy and lack personal discipline/self-control.
Fit your experience with weight loss into this rubric → Show that you became fat because of laziness and lack of personal discipline/self-control as a general character trait (i.e., not just limited to your failure to lose weight). Show that you were fat because you made a choice to be fat. Show that this justified other people’s holding a negative bias towards you based only on the observation that you were fat.
Please show me where I said I was fat or that I made any excuse for being fat. My propositions are these:
(1) People who are fat have not chosen to be fat.
(2) One cannot conclude from the observation that someone is fat that he or she is lazy and lacking in personal discipline/self-control as a character trait such that one can conclude that that person is lazy and lacking in personal discipline/self-control with regard to every aspect of life.
(3) One cannot justify a negative bias against fat people based on the reasoning that a person who is fat is necessarily lazy and lacking in personal discipline/self-control.
You have no idea what I spend my time doing, so save your advice for someone who asked.
This is just silly now. I’m not saying this isn’t a true statement, but using it as an excuse as to why people are fat is ridiculous.
If I must.
In high school I was about 190 pounds. 3 weeks after high school, I went to an art school up in Chicago. I was broke and couldn’t afford to eat much. I didn’t have a car and walked everywhere I went. I lost weight in a very unhealty way that probably messed up my metabolism pretty good… got down to somewhere around 170, but it was a sickly skinny. After graduating, I moved back to my home town where I got a good, high paying job, a car, and moved in with a couple good friends. When I wasn’t at work, I was sitting on a couch with my buddies drinking beer. When we got hungry, we’d elect one of us to go to Taco Bell for the others or get something delivered. I did that for about a year in a half and I gained about 80 pounds. I was lazy and undisciplined and didn’t move more than I had to.
I didn’t make a choice to be fat, but I certainly made choices that led to a huge increas in pant size. Speaking of pants, I went to the store to buy a new pair and realized I couldn’t fit into a size 38. It freaked me out and snapped me back into reality. I moved out of that apartment and bought an elliptical machine and started doing research on how to lose the weight. 1 year later I was down 70 pounds and looked better and healthier than I had in my entire life. I went from lazy and undisciplined to extremely active, happy, healthy, and disciplined. For people that don’t make the same choice I did… that’s something they have to deal with. But I don’t understand why they would.
Maybe not, but they’ve made choices that made them fat. In most cases, of course.
I didn’t say they could. But that doesn’t stop people from doing it.
Sure they can. They do it all the time. You can either accept it or stop being fat so you don’t have to deal with it anymore.
For millennia our bodies have been programed to pile on the weight when food is plentiful and shed it slowly in times of dearth. It helped our species survive when we couldn’t tell where or when the next meal might come from. A hundred years ago most working class people in this country weren’t fat, they were mostly malnourished because food was relatively expensive and often unnourishing. Many people survived on slices of bread and margarine and cups of tea. Now, food is cheap and plentiful (in the first world, anyway). It is also often high in starch, salt, sugar and fat. Nobody chooses to be fat in the sense that they wake up one morning and say, “Right, my personal goal is to gain 100 lbs by the end of this year.” Yet on a rational level they must know that if they keep on eating and not burning it off by exercise then they will pile on the pounds. Anything else is wilful self-deception.
Self deception, perhaps. Wilful self-deception, I won’t accept. As you yourself have partially set out, there’s a lot more behind individual decisions to eat something or engage in exercise beyond the consideration “over time, will this accumulate with other such decisions and result in my being fat”? There’s biological instinct, there’s individual conditioning, there’s a host of mental and physical impulses that are immediate and are weighing on the other side of that long-term consideration. Yes, of course, in the end, that one long-term decision may be the only rational one and, in terms of long-term well-being, may be the most important one, but human decision-making just doesn’t work like that and to paint with a broad brush that those who fail to make the choice that is beneficial in the long term are, as a general character trait “lazy and lacking in personal discipline/self-control” and thus these people have made a choice that deserves contempt is plainly an ignorant conclusion.
It’s totally acceptable to lambast smokers too. In fact, I remember last winter a health care firm firing all their smokers, then a week or so later, firing all the overweight employees too.
I’ve noticed that Californians in particular seem to loathe fat people and smokers and, of course, the ever dangerous fat smoker. I’ve been cussed at in public for smoking while walking down a sidewalk numerous times, once by a woman who, a block later, let her dog shit on the same sidewalk and didn’t clean it up.
There was a great op-ed in the New York Times a week ago that argued unhealthiness is now more sinful than 6 of the 10 commandments. That’s where we’re at people. Enjoy the ride.
Um, I think “lacks self-discipline” is a perfectly good way to describe someone who opts for short-term satisfaction rather than long-term benefits.
I also think “lazy” is a perfectly acceptable word for someone who makes excuses as to why they couldn’t/shouldn’t exercise when they know it would do nothing but make them healthier.