I don’t think it’s the same thing. Although I’ve heard a very few smokers say “I don’t want to smoke but I’m addicted and I can’t stop”, almost all of them say “I want to smoke and I have a right to smoke”. Whereas overweight people don’t want to be overweight, they just say that it’s very difficult for them to control. Lambasting someone for choosing to do something unhealthy isn’t the same as lambasting someone for not being able to stop.
Because quitting smoking is so easy, right? :dubious:
Ah, conformism is the answer.
Some examples from my own life on the laziness and discipline of fat folks.
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In high school I was naturally thin and toned. My friend was my height with ~15-20 extra pounds. Put us side by side and guess who ran a triathlon. Anyone would have picked me, but I could hardly run a mile at that time. She was the only one in her category that finished.
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My college roommate was fat, shorter than me with about 40-50 pounds more. After I was lifting weights for a couple of months she joined me for one or two sessions. She easily had a conversation while benching a set that I couldn’t even finish. She also walked several miles a day around campus, so she was fit. She was also vegetarian and at better than I did. She also worked almost full time while taking a full load of classes, volunteering at least once a week in the community, being a part of ~5 student organizations and being an officer in at least two of those. To her academics and political issues were more important to getting thin (vanity). She has more self discipline in her pinky than I have in this BMI = 24 body.
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My mother got fat while she was working two jobs, or working 12 hours a day and most weekends at one job to help keep us afloat and put me through college. While I was still at home we had shouting matches a couple of times a week that took up the evenings. When I left for college, my grandmother’s health started failed and my grandparents needed more help.
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Another fat woman I knew in high school is singing opera professionally with a company in Houston, TX. That doesn’t take self-discipline at all.
All of the fat folks I know personally are awesome people. They’ve made some choices that affect their weight, yes. My mother certainly did. But those weren’t bad choices. Usually it helped them, or someone else, more than being skinny would have. Personally, I am far more worried about my skinny weak sedentary friends than my overweight hiking buddies.
Some people do gain weight due to bad decisions involving laziness and poor discipline. It sounds like that was the case for you, wasson. But that is your experience and your history. Why do you insist on universalizing it?
Sidenote - In line with my personal experience, I tend to have more knee-jerk biased reactions to “pretty people” than fat folks. I try to recognize and avoid it as much as I can because it’s just as dumb.
A pretty highly charged thread. It’s very personal for many folks with weight problems. I got my Goodyear Radial Tire around my belly when I was 9. Aside from two short-lived periods of time, it has never left. It inflates and deflates depending upon a very complex set of factors.
This is only my take on my issues, I’m not trying to speak for anyone else. Food is a source of comfort, reward, punishment and control. Lacking control over much of my life, I am able to keep control in one area- what I eat and do not eat. ( This may sound like I’m tossing off bullshit, but this is a real inner truth. I suspect I am not alone in this ). Food has become the fulcrom for other events. It defines my self-image ( or, lack of thereof ). I own my body and control what happens with it, even if that is not healthy or productive.
It’s not enough to apply " lazy, selfish, indulgent" and other negative or perjorative labels. Frequently the issues cut very deeply. Sit not in judgement until you live the life of someone who struggles daily with their own body. It ain’t pretty.
I once weighed 310 pounds (I’m 6’2"). I was similarly overweight for my age and height for roughly 25 years. It was because I did not burn more calories than my body took in. I was not disciplined. I was mentally lazy and weak. In other words, I was a fat lazy fuck.
I decided that I was going to change that. I also decided that I would not lose weight if I did the “1 pound a week” method, because I was not going to lose weight torturously over 2 years. I also harbor the suspicion that the need to lose weight gradually and slowly is just another excuse in the minds of most fat people. It allows them to lose 15 pounds over 4 months, feel like they’ve earned yet another fat-fueld reward that isn’t really deserved, and slip off the diet.
I also knew that I would not stick to an exercise regimen, because I do not like or choose to spend the time on most forms of exercise. That is my problem, and I dealt with it.
I drastically cut back my calories to a level fairly far below what I needed as a pretty sedentary adult, and stuck to the diet with brutality. I ate whatever I wanted, but I took rough calculations as to calorie count and always erred on the side of getting too little. In other words, if I had a piece of cake, that would be the meal. If it was particularly “bad” cake, that would be a couple of meals. I lost a lot of weight in 9 months.
I now weigh between 175 and 180 pounds. I have for six years. I constantly have to crack back on myself, because I still fundamentally have the mind of a fat lazy fuck. This is my problem. It is not an excuse. It means that I am weak. It means that part of my thought process needs to be beaten into submission. I do not deserve sympathy for it, any more than someone who is too lazy to hold a job deserves sympathy because they don’t have the discipline to buckle down and make a day’s pay.
I agree with the assessment; most, approaching 99%, of fat people are fat because they are poorly disciplined lazy people. I don’t care to hear their crying. If that makes me like the black man who has turned on his own kind (as I read about much earlier in this thread), so be it.
What good are policy changes going to do if we don’t have the personal to implment them. We’d love to have 10 people to lift someone off of their bathroom floor when they are wedged between the shower and the toilet, but it is not going to happen, even if mandated. In that situation 10 people are not going to help if only 4 of us can fit into the bathroom.
We do have somethings to help us lift, or atleast to give a patient handles, so it is easier to lift someone. (plastic sheets we can roll a patient onto with handles sewn into it) However, our units are packed full of supplies and machines, there would not be anywhere to keep any additional equipment. Also, any lifting equipment would need to be small enough to be employed easily.
Still no reasion to hate fat people, but damn my back aches just thinking of having to lift them.
I think it may have more to do with envy. We are envious of fat people.
I can sense some of you pulling away from me, but wait-
Back when I used to teach electrical engineering, the school’s director of training had a saying. If things were going good, and you solved all your problems ahead of deadline and had no worries, he would say that you’re in Fat City. Oddest thing was, he was obese himself.
What the hell is Fat City, I thought to myself. It must be a place where life is good. Where everybody makes a six figure salary and eats steak for dinner every night. You don’t have to do the yardwork, you’ve got a gardener. Likewise a butler, maid, etc.
Flash forward to today. My current director is fat. My previous director was fat. In fact, all but one of the several dozen directors in my line of business are super-sized. In my company, directors make well over six figures. It is common perception among the workers in the trenches that directors sit at their oversized oak desk and do little but issue policy directives and set department budgets. And do we see them down at the cafeteria at lunchtime? Heck no! They’re having lunch delivered to their office courtesy of their executive assistant (aka secretary).
So, yes it’s partially a laziness issue. But I think it’s largely envy of the lower and middle class towards the executive fat cats who continue to grow rounder as the days go by, in direct proportion to the level of blood, sweat and tears shed by their workforce.
It’s this guy we hate.
Wow, I feel sorry for you now, thanks for sharing that. (no sarcasm is intended here so please don’t read any into this) I can’t imagine carrying around that much self-loathing for years. All that torture for what? Do you have anywhere near the muscle mass you did before the crash diet? You still have a very poor self-image judging from the F.L.F comment, what did you really gain? Do you really want to spend the next thirty or so years you’ve got left beating yourself and cracking back on yourself? There isn’t a weigh-in when you die.
I don’t really want to say this next part because you’re hurting yourself enough already but without exercise you’re not even gaining much for life expectency. Please don’t take that as a hint to torture yourself into working out, it won’t be worth it.
For your own sake, lighten up. Forgive yourself. Find a passion and follow it, explore life but don’t waste any fmore time beating yourself into submission. You’ve proven there are worse ways to go through life than fat.
Here is where you lose my sympathy. Fat people should not have to follow your idea of self discipline just to survive in society. This thread isn’t about fat people crying because they’re fat, it’s about having to deal with people like you projecting your own self-loathing on to them. None of the fat people I know are poorly disciplined lazy people, although I’m sure some exist. I don’t think you get past your own prejudices to find that out.
I’m genuinely taking what you are saying at face value, and you’re not upsetting me. What’ve you said is appreciated, but I would still say that the poor self-image, to the extent it is there, is from being weak enough that I still need to beat back eating habits that would lead me to return to a blob like state. What I have gained is the ability to walk around without brushing into things, the ability to hug people and feel their entire bodies, not push parts of them away with a giant gut. With being able to run across a street to beat traffic and not giggle as I do it.
Bear in mind that I’m also not a firm believer in the “exercise” camp, but more because I believe exercise should come naturally, from doing things like golf, gardening, and normal life events. We drive our cars to the gym to work out, rather than just walk to the grocery store.
My muscle mass is fine. I’m pretty sure I have the same muscle mass as your average sedentary office worker. I have a really hard time believing that I have gained nothing over being an average 310 pound sedentary office worker.
I won’t. I’ve reviewed the various life expectency calculators and other medical data I can find, and I will tell you that you are the first person to ever tell me that I’m not gaining much by being 130 pounds lighter.
No, I’m pretty happy. I won’t be happy if I look and feel like a blimp again. It’s not a sickness to have discipline; the sickness is in somehow believing that it is wrong to deny yourself the second cheeseburg from McDonalds because life is too short. Life may be too short for me to have to deal with a lot of pain and irritation, but I don’t allow myself to shoot heroin because it makes it easier to get through it.
Hoping that didn’t sound to snarky. I didn’t intend it, but I don’t agree with a lot of what you have said. The idea, I think, is to get to a stage where your mind is adjusted so that it is normal to want to eat healthy and normal amounts of food, rather than even feel like you are repressing yourself. Give me 20 years and I’ll get back to you on how that theory works out. 
I feel like I’ve been there, lived with fat people, know fat people, and have been a fat person. We just have different perspectives I guess. Deep down, most fat people I know tend to have a very heavy denial over what they are, and why they are fat. Because I think they have a hard time putting down the fork, and a hard time living with what that inability creates. Excuses are a natural way to try to soften bad self-image and the knowledge that you lack self-discipline; losing the weight is a better way.
As for self-loathing, I’m afraid that a good chunk of my normal friends who were never fat must somehow also project their same self-loathing. Being serious, it’s not self-loathing. It’s disgust and loathing at the other. Much in the same way that seeing a pile of maggots and being revolted does not imply self-loathing; instead, it’s disgust, and fear of contamination of the self with the other.
I disagree that fat people need to follow my ideas just to survive. This thread has really blown out of proportion what happens to fat people in our society. Fat people are not marked for death. Yes there is bias, and some of it may be wrong. But I don’t think we need to start throwing fat people in with the Jews and the blacks in terms of level of persecution.
You do have a longer life expectency than when you were 130 pounds heavier, that’s true. The point I was trying to make is that it isn’t nearly as big as an improvement as exercise brings. If you find one of the detailed life expectency calculators and change the activity variable from sedentary to moderately active you’ll see what I mean. High blood preasure, cholesterol, heart problems are all issues you’ll still have to face. Diabetes is the common disease that is only weight related. As an active fat person I have the same odds of getting it as a sedentary fat person with a similar family background.
I’m glad you’re pretty happy, I didn’t get that impression from your previous post but then only means I rushed to judgement based on only one glimpse of your life. We are in agreement about exercise comming naturally, I get a good laugh at the people pounding away on treadmills indoors while I’m roaming around in the beautiful outdoors. (although I learned from a doper why, in her particular case, she needs to exercise that way) I found an exercise I enjoyed so I don’t have to force myself to do it. If I skip more than a day I miss it and I can easily see myself doing it for the rest of my life. I don’t scorn or insult the sedentary people, nor do I demand they be removed from my insurance pool for driving up my rates or call them undisiplined because they don’t follow my workout routine. They’re living their lives as best they can like everybody else.
But it’s not about discipline or at least it shouldn’t be. The cheeseburger isn’t a reward or a punishment or a goal or evil. It’s just a cheeseburger. I don’t deny myself a second one when I want it. When it’s only a cheeseburger and not tied to some other baggage I find I don’t often want a second one. You are not bad or weak if you eat two cheeseburgers. If you think bad or weak people eat two cheeseburgers than when you are feeling bad you’ll act in the way you’ve taught yourself regardless of whether you’re hungry or not. Food is just fuel for the body, we all should learn to treat it that way.
Thanks for the thoughtful replies, this might be one thread where we’re reaching some understanding of all the sides involved.
i hate it when people get that wrong… doesn’t it just piss you off… oh and uh, i’m fat and people suck etc etc… it’s harder to get thin then you think blah blah blah anyhoo… l8er
Movie and Tv actors and actresses and models and CNN and many other anchors are generally fairly good looking.
If any of you who put down a fat person fit in the above category and it makes you feel better to put a fat person down, go ahead.
But MOST of you who are NOt fat have plenty about you that others can rip to pieces whether its your nose, your chin, your blemishes ad infinitum. Your intolerance is unacceptable. Keep this in mind the next time you put anyone down for their looks including obese people.
When I interview a fat person I say to myself, “This person appears to lack self-control. They might also be lazy.” In other words, their fatness counts against them in a hiring scenario when I am the interviewer.
That’s out-and-out discrimination.
It’s like if you were interviewing someone who had a tattoo. You might think, “Oh, he’s got a tattoo, that might mean he had a criminal past,” and turn them down based on that. It’s discrimination, and that’s unacceptable.
Someone’s weight has absolutely no bearing on their job performance. I have some excellent performance reviews that can attest to that. I’m also the breadwinner in my household. I work full-time, plus cook, clean, take care of the pets, do the shopping, and household repairs. That’s sooooooo lazy and undisciplined. :rolleyes:
But the key is it’s not illegal discrimination. Unless fatties claims a “handicap.”
As a fellow fattie I can call fattie fattie if fattie’s fat.
In the same note, though I am only slightly bulgey, I present a link to the episode of Sealab 2021 script where Debbie takes photographs of Dolphin Boy for use in Tubbie Teen" magazine, a magazine in the style of “Tiger Beat” ,devoted to fat kids. ,“Waking Quinn”
Warning: It’s weird.
Interviews are two way streets Crafter_Man, if that’s your attitute then I’m better off not working with you anyway. It shows you’re overly concerned with superficial details at the expense of meaningful ones. I’d just go hunt up your unprejudiced competition and together we’ll hand you your lunch.
I’d just like to point out here that not one person here has asked anyone to feel sympathy or feel sorry for fat people.
Not one fat person here has asked anyone to “understand why I am fat.” Not one fat person here has said “I don’t know why I’m fat and it’s not fair.”
Not one fat person here has said “accept my excuse for being fat.”
No one has said, “accept my excuse for not exercising or controlling my diet.”
No one has said “feel sorry for me because I have it as bad as black people.”
No one has said “you must overcome your personal taste regarding what body types are attractive and accept me as a sexually attractive person.”
What we are saying is this
– You can make no legitimate generalized judgment about my character based solely on the observation that I’m fat.
– You should not feel free to make disparaging remarks about me or express vitriol based solely on the characteristic that I am fat, any more than you should feel free to make such remarks based on someone’s race, religion, national origin, sexual preference, or any other superficial characteristic.
What in the world is wrong with you people? Are you not even reading what I’m typing?
If something you do ON PURPOSE gets you insults, stares, and predjudice, then you either need to stop doing it or accept that, with your behavior, you will get insults, stares, and predjudice. Let’s use a real-world example.
I’m a web designer. I very much look the part. I wear those dark rimmed, thick glasses. I wear t-shirts with old school Nintendo crap on them. Sometimes I carry a messenger bag. People who look at me know I’m kind of a computer nerd and ask me computer/design/art related questions wherever I go.
Last night in celebration of St. Patrick’s Day, I went to a bar with some friends. A guy there, drunk, made fun of my awesome green Zelda t-shirt. Another screamed “nice glasses” at me in a sarcastic voice, for some reason I can’t really comprehend. I chose to buy these silly glasses and ridiculous t-shirts, and I choose to wear them in public. Hence, I can’t be mad when they get me attention, positive or negative. It’s a choice I made.
For most people, being fat is also a choice. They chose to eat more food than they exercised off. They choose not to change their lifestyle to become thinner. If they don’t want to get pre-judged, then they need to choose to lose weight. It’s as simple as that.
I never said it was right to immediately judge people. I just said that it’s going to happen. Every day you make a choice as to how people will judge you based on your clothes, hair, perfume, facial hair, glasses, shoes, car you drive, neighborhood you live in… whatever. Fat is just another thing that people will draw conclusions about. People aren’t going to stop immediately judging others on appearance alone… it’s up to the individual person to decide how they want to present themselves to others. If they’re comfortable presenting themself as fat or non-conformist, fine. But they should expect some negative prejudice from it. Sad but true.