Why the vitriol and hatefulness toward fat people?

Factual Questions
141

I’ll buy that, and I honestly do try not to make any character judgements based on appearance alone. My point is that society as a whole won’t stop, so fatties either need to decide to lose weight or decide to ignore the prejudice that comes with being fat.

You keep confusing prejudice of something you choose to do vs. something you don’t. Prejudice is never acceptable against something the person didn’t have a choice in. That rules out race, national origin, and sexual preference.

But religion? If a stranger comes up to me and claims to be a Creationist, I’ll probably assume that person is an idiot, despite my efforts to not prejudge people.

Superficial characteristic? Give me an example. If I meet a stranger who stinks, whose clothes are dirty, whose teeth are either brown or missing, and whose hair looks like it hasn’t been washed in weeks, I’ll probably assume that person is homeless.

The point is that the choices you make in your life are always going to be sources of prejudice for society. Sometimes its justified, sometimes it isn’t. If I see a guy taking up 3 parking spaces at the mall with his retarded H2 Hummer, I’ll assume he’s an asshole. So would you, probably. Why should people who choose to eat too much be excluded?

142

wasson: * I chose to buy these silly glasses and ridiculous t-shirts, and I choose to wear them in public. Hence, I can’t be mad when they get me attention, positive or negative.*

If strangers are insulting you based on your physical appearance, then hell yes, you can get mad at that. Insulting people for their physical appearance—whether or not it’s something they can change if they want to—happens to be (remember this one?) RUDE.

It is RUDE to insult fat people about their physical appearance. It is RUDE to insult goth-looking people about their physical appearance. It is RUDE to insult nerdy-looking people about their physical appearance. It is not fat/goth/nerdy people’s fault if other people choose to RUDELY insult them.

The point you may be trying to make is that yes, there are always going to be RUDE insulting assholes in the world, and anybody who doesn’t conform to what such assholes consider to be acceptable norms of physical appearance is always going to be at risk of getting RUDELY insulted by them. However, that in no way justifies said assholes’ RUDE behavior, nor does it make the people the assholes are insulting responsible for the insults.

wasson: *I never said it was right to immediately judge people. I just said that it’s going to happen. *

I see what you’re saying here, and I agree. However, most of your post comes across sounding like cowed conformism and blame-the-victim apologetics for insults and rudeness.

If, instead of just humbly “accepting” the inevitability of rude insults directed at people’s physical appearance, we continue to make it emphatically clear that such behavior is not acceptable, we might have less of it to deal with.

143

I don’t necessarily accept the proposition that it’s okay to be prejudiced based on “something you do.” I’m not necessarily rejecting out of hand, but I think this question should be explored with some depth before I say anything conclusive.

However, even if I do accept that such a distinction applies here. Any prejudice based on the way you look is by definition a prejudice that is not based on something you are doing. Being fat is not an act. Eating too much is an act. Sitting around all day is an act.

Seeing someone eating too much and criticizing it or making a judgment that it is a bad choice is one thing. You are seeing an actual act that you can judge. Fine, you’ve got an act here that you can draw a conclusion about. What’s that conclusion? You have made a bad choice at this meal. And perhaps, even, “it is likely that you habitually make bad choices regarding eating.” Not “you are lazy and lacking in self control and not worth the risk of giving you a job.” In either case, it’s still not acceptable to insult that person.

On the other hand, if you just see a fat person and then make a judgment about his or her character, you are making an unfair judgment based on a superficial characteristic.

The homeless guy is different - you are looking at several pieces of data – not showered, unkempt, torn and unclean clothes, dirt and grass stuck to his coat. Conclusion: He’s probably been sleeping outside and is homeless. In this case you are making a judgment about a fact – this person has been sleeping outdoors and hasn’t been engaging in personal hygiene. You aren’t making an unfair judgment about his character. Then, if the guy starts wobbling and speaking incoherently, you could fairly conclude that this person might be a habitual abuser of alcohol and possibly suffers from some mental problems – these are all pretty strong data points to conclude that it would be prudent not to trust this person with heavy responsibilities.

The guy in the Hummer. Well, you have an act to judge. He’s taken up several parking places – that act is a rude and inconsiderate act that is a legitimate basis for a judgment. On the other hand, there is room for leeway – maybe he had a good reason to park like that. So, still, it’s not fair to come to a definitive conclusion. In either case, whether you choose to come to any conclusion at all, it’s pretty inconsequential. It’s not going to reflect the Hummerguy’s life at all.

144

Hmm. Have any performace reviews linking obesity to poor performance in the office?

If not, this strikes me as a “Oh, look, your skin color is slightly darker than mine. That means I hate you and want to burn you alive now.” scenario.

Er, since this is GQ, I’ll open the question up a little. Are there any such studies?

145

But making nice is all very well and good, but the fact remains–when you put your call light on and I answer it–I cannot, even with the help of all the predominantly female staff, pull you up in bed when you weigh 40+ pounds.

Lifting and transferring equipment is expensive and represents a capital investment for hospitals–most do not have it. They depend on staff.

I depend on Security to literally provide the extra muscle to lift the MO up. Since pts need to be pulled up alot-- about every hour–this is a huge waste of man power.

The big guy who weighs 350 and is 6’5"–he is EASIER to move and transfer than the petite, rotund person. The big guy has muscle mass, but he can be placed in certain positions which aid us in turning him etc. The masses of obese flesh that present themselves in the other example–they don’t lend themselves at all. There is no way to use leverage, etc. And our backs and hips are at risk everytime.
When my entire forearm can be swallowed up by an abdominal apron while attempting to clean a MO pt’s groin–we ahve entered into a strange place, my friends.

And that doesn’t even begin to address the psychological needs of these pts–the control issues they have, the self esteem issues, too. The constant fights with the kitchen and the RDs and docs re: “appropriate diet” etc. The complex denial mechanisms that come into play in the morbidly obese: I had one female pt tell me repeatedly that “ever since the doc put her on steroids, she couldn’t lose this water weight.” She tipped the scales at 480 pounds on a 5’5" frame.

MO people are almost impossible to keep clean–and I mean normal hygiene clean. This can and does lead to skin infections–difficult to treat in the MO and also skin tears and breakdown–aka bedsores. They suffer from breathing difficulites and varying degrees of heart failure. Their joints are stressed and do not function well, so they tend to be stiff and not able to turn/move/raise their arms etc. Every aspect of their care stresses an already overloaded health care system. I feel for those EMS-I do.

Taking care of MO pts is hell, believe me. NO HCP looks forward to it.

That does not mean that they should be abused or treated like scum. that is not only rude, it is unprofessional. So, while I care for the MO in a professional manner, my opinions are with Crafter .

Noone put a gun to these people’s heads and said, you must overeat. Yes, genetics plays a part, as does metabolism. Not everyone is a Kate Moss (thank god), nor should everyone strive to have her body build. But we are not talking about that.

But there is a large window of opportunity for anyone to impact positively on ther weight. Noone deserves to be MO–it must be hell. But I have little sympathy for those who bemoan their weight when there are entire industries dedicated to assisting you in this, if only you would 1. listen and 2. act and act consistently over time.

146

Ohhh, okay. So if someone on the street starts following me around and insulting my appearance, they can’t be mad when I snap and beat the shit out of them.

What? They chose to harass me unprovoked. It’s the choice they made. I can’t be held responsible for my actions.

147

Kimstu just about covered that. A person’s appearance, be it fatness, Zelda shirts, or thick glasses, is nobody’s else’s business, and certainly not grounds for bigotry and abuse.

Creationist = idiot? OK. What about Judaism/Islam/Buddhism/Shinto/whatever?

Does that person have a reason to be homeless? Was there a choice? What about this other guy with a turban, or this one with black clothes and those little curls in front of his ears?

Taking three spaces is certainly wrong; having a Hummer isn’t necessarily “retarded” (a slam against stupid people).

As acsenray says, you should be judging people on their actions, not on appearance. I think robertliguori is a little over the top with his mention of “burning alive,” but his request for a cite on obesity/performance studies seems fair. I still haven’t seen the one I asked for about your statement that “more than 99% of fat people are fat simply because they’re too lazy to change.”

148

After reading through all of this I really should put a gun to my head and just end it all, but I’ve got a couple of things standing in my way:

I don’t have a gun.

I don’t like guns.

Over in GD (and how this remains in GQ is beyond belief), suicide is either courageous, selfish, or cowardly, and I certainly wouldn’t want to be remembered like that on top of being morbidly obese.

If I have no willpower or self-discipline, explain how I gave up smoking cold turkey after more than 2 packs a day for most of 30 years? If I could never eat again, I’d gladly do it. Unfortunately, that doesn’t work, either. I actually enjoyed Opti-Fast for 8 months and lost about half my weight – more than most “normal” people should weigh – and had to stop using it because for the first (and only) time in my life my cholesterol level was 200 (it was before and has since been in the 160’s consistently).

I’m fat. I’m unhealthy (though if you looked at my blood work, I have the heart profile of a low risk patient, go figure), I hate being fat, and I hate exercise even more than being fat, every time I’ve lost weight I’ve gained it back and more, I accept that this is who I am and how I am. For the last few years, my weight has actually stabilized at this horribly unhealthy weight, because I’ve given up trying to lose it.

Truly, I feel sorry for the EMTs and other HCPs who have to deal with us – I know it can’t be a lot of fun, but it’s not a lot of fun for us, either, and we deal with it every day of our lives. You don’t like the work, find a different job. Nobody forced you to do that work, and nobody promised you you’d love every aspect of your job. We all have our crosses to bear. That’s one of yours.

However, why a moron who (apparently) leaves his truck on and unattended and doesn’t even care that it’s crashed into another vehicle has to be described as FAT, is beyond me. A skinny person would never do that? Yeah, OK.

149

Okay, here we go.

I once again believe it is mainly due to the factor of dehumanization. If you want to insult someone, all you need to do is mentally throw them into a group that it’s okay to insult. So…

I know here as fellow dopers, we’re -generally- pretty okay with each other. We have our differences, but in general we’re okay.

I’d like those that have a pre-disposition to vitriol towards fat people, next time you think of calling someone a fat f*ck, to think of me. To the best of my knowledge, I’m a decent guy. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I speak my mind here, but in moderation, and I answer GQ questions when I’m able. I’m a real, live human being (even behind all this text.).

I’m also hugely overweight.

Now insult me. Not as a joke, not as a one-liner to add to this thread. Go ahead, get some real anger behind it.

I suspect (I don’t know for certain) that it’ll be harder.

Insulting people is easy. Insulting person is much harder. With luck, I’ve humanized the problem for you. Don’t insult over body size. There’s no reason for it.

150

wasson is correct. Fatness is a choice. And the fact of the matter is that a lot of people (me, for example) will assume a fat person is lazy and/or unable to practice self-control. The people who make these assumptions are not going to change.

So if you’re fat and you do not want people to assume you’re lazy and/or unable to control yourself, then you should simply choose not be fat.

151

In think it’s perfectly acceptable to judge someone based on any choice they have made. This includes clothing, hair style, tattoos, fatness, jewelry, makeup, etc.

152

What an odd reply. I very clearly said: "Although I’ve heard a very few smokers say ‘I don’t want to smoke but I’m addicted and I can’t stop’, almost all of them say “I want to smoke and I have a right to smoke”.

And then you come back with a sarcastic response implying that they’re addicted and they can’t stop. It’s like you didn’t read my post at all. :confused:

153

I think you are missing the point. If the police are fed up with busting petty thieves–they should find new work? And no, I am not equating MO people with criminals. There is alot more to my job than just caring for MO people–thing is, we used to get maybe 2-3 “Pickwickian syndrome” pts a year–now it’s about 4-5 a month. You are not one of my crosses to bear–what is up with the martyrdom? It is a fact of life–as a MO pt, you are more likely to get substandard care because you demand so much of it. Often, especially on the off shifts, there are literally not enough people around to pick you up off the floor if you fall. Are you willing to have family stay at the bedside 24/7 to help? News for you–visitors are not allowed to aid in lifting/pulling due to liability issues. Congrats on the cholesterol, but normal lab values do not define good health.

I resent having to put my own health at risk to take care of someone who has not taken responsiblity for their own. Harsh? You bet–but I have a family that depends on my health. Nurses face everything from work violence to exposure to all manner of contagion etc–to me, MO is a CHOICE. For example, a drug addict in my unit has also not taken responsiblity for his health–but mine is not a risk when I care for him. There are precautions one can take to minimize exposure to disease etc–there is no way to safely lift a 400+ person with limited staff, even with proper body mechanics. Standard of care demands that xyz be done for the pt–reality says that xyz cannot be done because it is unsafe for the HCP. The loser is the MO pt, but also the HCP.

Do I advocate people saying rude things and abusing fat people in public? Of course not–not because I’m a nurse, but because that is rude behavior.

I cannot join the pity party here–it sounds so much like a bunch of alcoholics sitting around and moaning about how nobody understands why they drink–they’re pain is just so much greater than anyone elses etc. :rolleyes:
Like you said, we all have things we have to deal with–especially the consequences of our choices. Do you ask for abuse by being obese? No-noone deserves that. But I refuse to feed the myth that MO people are helpless to help themselves and that society should accomodate them. Noone gets that free a pass, in any strata of society.

154

Sorry. I mean skeletor, not me. :smack:

155

CrafterMan: And the fact of the matter is that a lot of people (me, for example) will assume a fat person is lazy and/or unable to practice self-control. The people who make these assumptions are not going to change.

That may be. But just because a prejudice is widespread and persistent doesn’t mean it’s justified. There are also lots of people who will assume that a black or Latino person is “lazy and/or unable to practice self-control”. A lot of people who make those assumptions are not going to change, either. Doesn’t mean they’re right.

Being obese is quite different from being a racial minority, in that there’s much more legal latitude for discrimination against the obese, and the obese generally can (and wish to) change. But that doesn’t mean that prejudice against the obese is automatically logically or morally defensible.

Saying “well, fat people have to be prepared to encounter prejudice and dislike” is one thing. Claiming that prejudice and dislike against fat people are justified is something else again, and requires actual evidence to back it up—evidence which has not, as far as I’m aware, been offered so far in this thread.

156

Ah, and if I’m unable to, I assume that means that the derision against me is fully justified, and I should just shut up and take it?

157

And where exactly did you get the idea that this is what’s going on here? It seems like this is something that you’re bringing in from your own mental baggage. Please cite some examples of fat people begging for understanding and sympathy.

Crafter_Man, honestly, I’m going to call it quits. Clearly, you’ve got a couple of beliefs (that fat people choose to be fat and that it is perfectly justifiable to make judgements about people’s character based on their sartorial choices) that you’re hanging on to for dear life. Maybe you need those beliefs to help you get up in the mornings, who knows. Have fun sitting around with your beer buddies and hate people based on their appearance. I’m sure it’ll make for a rewarding life.

158

eleanorigby: But I refuse to feed the myth that MO people are helpless to help themselves and that society should accomodate them.

I agree that it’s important not to treat widespread obesity as just another neutral lifestyle choice. There are serious threats to health, comfort, and convenience posed by obesity, not just for the obese themselves but for many of the people who deal with them. Obesity is a problem, no question.

However, by refusing to require that “society should accomodate” the extra needs of the obese, we are cutting off our noses to spite fat people’s faces. I take your point about lifting equipment, etc., being expensive and therefore rare in hospitals. Nonetheless, that is what medical personnel and all the rest of us should be pushing for. We also need to work against the obesity epidemic, but we’re not going to eradicate it any time soon.

In the meantime, we’re balancing our health care services literally on the backs of medical personnel. We don’t want to spend what it takes on equipment to help safely care for the heavy patients who make up a large and growing percentage of those who need care. So we let nurses and medics routinely risk their safety and health to handle them, and take it out in grumbling that people shouldn’t be so fat. IMO, that’s not an acceptable solution.

Nor, IMO, is it acceptable to deal with fat people’s transportation requirements by stuffing them into average-sized seats and requiring them and their neighbors to put up with the discomfort and crowding. Yes, it would be much better and fairer all around, not to mention healthier, if the vast majority of people were normal weight and accomodating the needs of a very fat person was an extremely rare exception. However, that ain’t the society we’ve got at present, and it ain’t the society we’re going to have for at least another decade or so.

In the meantime, we need to accept the reality of the situation and figure out ways to make ordinary life more manageable for our many fat people and those who have to deal with them. We don’t have to like it, but we have to do it.

159

It’s illegal discrimination in San Francisco, unless the person’s weight has some relevance to the job’s requirements.

The same is true of a person’s height. That law was enacted by the city a few years ago.

Ed

160

I’m just really sad now to see just how many people on these boards will judge someone just by whether they are fat or not. I thought the message here was about fighting ignorance?

Well, I can only hope that the people who choose to discriminate will one day become the very thing they hate. Then they’ll know how it feels to be the object of unwarranted prejudice.