The whole joke with Barney was that he didn’t actually need to pull any tricks to get laid - he was a rich, handsome, impeccably dressed man, superficially self-confident and charming when he wanted to be, and apparently very good in bed. He ran his “plays” because he liked tricking people; if anything, they made it harder for him to get women, and he knew it.
Oh man, I had the same vest she’s wearing in that clip, and I loved it. Wish I still had it.
There’s foolishness in fashion going on alright, no question there, but, and I’m chuckling as I write this, I think there is some kind of peacocking going on there, and it might not even be unrelated to a superhero image that you allude to. Isn’t that a spread-eagle on his chest? .
Not to get off topic in my own thread, but where did the capes come from? Like who wears freakin’ capes other than superheroes and…I don’t know…turn of the century Prussian cavalry officers?
This article suggests that it was:
- To make it easier for the artist to show, in the grainy comic book art of the past, that the character was flying (e.g., Superman, Thor, Storm of the X-Men)
- To have a mechanism for the character to be blending into the shadows (e.g., Batman)
- For theatrical effect, particularly for characters who are mysterious and/or egotistical (e.g., Doctor Doom, Magneto, Doctor Strange)
Ayn Rand:
Stranger
Barney is perhaps similar to many of my friends at that time in my life in that he viewed going out to bars and hitting on women as something that was inherently fun and silly. From what I read of people in the PUA community, they almost seem to act at as if they are studying for a test or something. And there’s always this underlying current of anger and resentment.
Well, those are real nice shoes.
The thing is with these groups is that they aren’t attracting the types of men who were successful with the opposite sex back in their teenage years. These are people who never got the attention they feel like they deserved and are desperate to make up for it.
Throw in some continued failures with the opposite sex and you’ve got men heading down the red pill/incel movements.
The things I read about it specifically said that direct insults wouldn’t work, as they would be dismissed as the guy just being an jerk. The whole point of negging was to be sneaky.
And (some rather shitty stuff follows), it was only for the hottest women, the “9s and 10s” as they called it. The idea was that these women were used to being hit on and would adopt a “bitch shield” in order to discourage men from doing so. People responding to said “bitchiness” with an insult was considered expected.
You weren’t supposed to use negging at all on the “6s and 7s,” because they were presumed to be more likely to have self-esteem issues. With them, you would generally be nice and complimentary.
There were some addendums where people indicated you could get a bit more harsh as long as you played it as a clear joke. But, again, only with the women who were supremely confident, which were presumed to be the most attractive women.
None of that is pretty at all. But it wasn’t “be mean to women so they will feel insecure and like you.” The idea was about “reframing” yourself as the prize, rather than the woman. It’s a very antagonistic relationship they would describe with the hottest women.
Oh. For a minute there I thought you were talking about “peacocking,” the idea that you should dress in a way that calls attention to yourself and shows just how confident you are.
This is one where the definition has remained mostly the same:
Though I do remember the one episode of Mystery’s show that I watched involved a guy peacocking by wearing a shiny speedo. The idea was that he had to be supremely confident to think he could pull it off.
It all seems very Leisure Suit Larry to me. And, of course, Larry is the type of guy who would get mocked in the games.
I guess you haven’t read his book right? Negging is a special tool for a special purpose. It’s just a tiny part of the toolkit and is probably the ugliest one - think of it like a solder iron - good for only one or two jobs around the house, if that.
The first thing they taught (at the time when Strauss was there on the scene) was to improve yourself. Strauss had thinning hair he was desperately trying to keep, and Mystery told him he had to accept his impending baldness and own it. Shave it off and work on whatever else you have, he said. Physical workout, fashion, magic tricks, cold reading, making money, anything that gives you an edge.
He wasn’t wrong.
Negging was a very small part of it. But you did notice, I hope, that when he first met Alba, his greeting is so perfunctory and he quickly moves on to speak to Kimmel, that I’m sure he pinged Alba’s “Hmm” reflex. That was on purpose. Hardly anyone else would do that to her on a first meeting. Then the next words, “I’m taken”. So now Alba feels safe but curious. That’s where you want to start.
I’ve seen it get chalked up to the same roots as the rest of the costume: picture a circus strongman who can flex so impressively that he can earn a living by taking the underpants-over-tights look and actually making it work; he can only keep that up for so long, but he only needs to keep it up for so long, if he conceals his physique under a cape until he makes the dramatic reveal shortly before he starts performing showy feats of strength for oohs and aahs…
The main thing, however, is that we can’t tell from a clip like that if she was actually interested. She’s on TV, and there is a whole lot of fake interest built into the talk show format. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but do remember that these guys are playing to an audience.
But, yeah, he was clearly running the stuff from his book. There’s no way that his question having her describe herself was not a line from that book. I never read it, but it just reads like a prepared opener. He was reframing the situation where she would have to tell him why she was an interesting person, rather than acting all star struck.
And that perfunctory greeting was basically negging. One thing I neglected to mention is that it usually ended with you dropping the conversation for a bit. There’s the subtle insult in him not continuing to talk to her, despite otherwise seeming polite.
I think there’s a broader issue going on with these guys. Somehow, they missed the day of school where the idea that women aren’t mysterious, inscrutable, or hard to fathom was taught. They objectify them into being something other than people- maybe some sort of Turing test that if they act/say the right things, it rewards with sex. So they get concerned with how/what those “right things” are, so that they can get sex out of these women. They’ve probably already tried being “nice”, and discovered that most women don’t want a groveling wuss, but they don’t know where to go from there.
I think this is largely fueled by the way younger men tend to judge each other by their sexual conquests- getting laid a lot, especially with attractive women is a high status thing. Perhaps the highest status thing even.
So these guys are low status in their own eyes because they don’t get laid, and they want to change that. They’re angry because they can’t figure it out, and feel like they’re being denied something everyone else has. This makes them feel really terrible and unworthy. They don’t know how to go about getting laid, so they fall for these PUA hucksters, because they’re basically saying “Yes, it IS magic, and I know the spells that I can teach you!”
I wouldn’t be surprised, but don’t personally know, if the Potemkin-village nature of social media plays into it for younger men; seeing lots of guys’ social media posts with women is likely to make a lot of guys jealous and feel worse about themselves.
I am sure that the rise of the Web made it much more popular- prior to that, it would have been one-off guys reading a book and trying the techniques. With the web, you had message boards, websites, emails, little videos, etc… which made it all more accessible and a “community”.
FWIW, I remember Hitch being a pretty formulaic boy meets girl romcom, all of his clients were looking for long term relationships.
For some us though it is true to an extent that women are mysterious when it comes to dating/mating. I can’t read signals of interest. I’ve seen them when they weren’t there, and I’m sure I missed them when they were. If I were gay and men sent signals I’m sure I wouldn’t pick up those either. I definitely felt terrible and unworthy. I got lucky and met someone who didn’t bother with just sending signals and married her. I don’t think I would have ever gotten desperate enough to try the “pick up artist” thing because being my authentic self was a non-negotiable for me.
Frankly, reading something like this, I don’t wonder why guys like this would feel isolated.
I will echo P-man. No, not everybody, not every man is great at figuring this out. I couldn’t figure it out. Finally defaulted to ones that showed obvious interest. That didn’t work out that well actually.
Basically no one cares about these guys and their fate. They are not typically doing illegal acts. Certain men and women seem not to like their approaches, though a lot of these same men and women don’t seem to like these guys much in the first place. Hence all of the “incel” shaming that is all the rage. An acceptable bigotry.
The world doesn’t care about them, why should they care about the world?
Yeah, and I think that conceiving it as “some men think women are inscrutable” is a misleading framing. IME a large proportion of the population would benefit from learning social cues better. Think of all the people you know who often talk too much, for example, and don’t register that others are done with the conversation or have something that they want to share.
But dating in particular is an area that many people get wrong at first, because we each have to learn a lot of it individually, with just things like movies for reference (and movies and TV generally give bad advice).
“Challenge accepted!”