Dating Double Standard

The BBQ Pit
1

I got asked out today.

On a date!

I feel really flattered, and I can’t remember being this happy and excited in a long time.

Thank you, Stacy, for having the guts to break out of the social mold and ask me out first, rather than waiting for me to do it, because frankly, I probably never would’ve worked up the courage to do it. (Hell I didn’t even know you were interested in me until you asked me out).

I’ve never been asked on a date before.

This wonderful experience has led me to reflect upon the disaster that has been my love life in the ten years since I started dating, which is why this post is in the Pit.

I hate being a man in the post feminist world.

Before you jump down my throat for daring to express dissatisfaction with anything related to the sacred cow of feminism, let me state that I love the ideals of feminism and I strongly believe that men and women should have equal opportunities to excel in all walks of life (which should apply to men who wish to be house-husbands as well as women who desire to be CEOs).

What I hate is the fact that our social mores haven’t caught up with the progress women have made in expanding their opportunities. Men are still restricted by a gender role that hasn’t changed in hundreds of years.

We’re still expected to be breadwinners, for instance. It’s no secret that a man’s paycheck is a big factor in how attractive he is to the opposite sex. I don’t recall ever giving a fuck about how much money a woman makes in the context of sex appeal, although I’ve certainly been dumped for not making enough money (okay, she was an asshole and a bad example, but still…)

The dating game is another great example of this. Men are still expected to bear the complete burden of initiating courtships.

I’m a smart, attractive guy with a good personality (albeit I’m a bit on the shy side), and I’ve dated five women in the last ten years. I’ve had to ask every one of them on a first date. I’ve asked two other women out, but they rejected me flat-out, and in both cases the experience was traumatic and humiliating.

I’m not completely spineless, and I think most people will agree that it takes a significant amount of courage to ask someone out.

I get the feeling that some women, perched on the luxuriously detached ivory tower of the pursued, lose sight of the blood, sweat, and tears shed by their pursuers. They take for granted the fact that all they have to do is wait around for awhile before being asked on a date, while their pursuer has to do all the real work.

How convenient! It’s nice simply having to choose between “yes” or “no”, isn’t it? And if you say no, unless the guy is a total scuzz, you can go home feeling flattered, while your unfortunate suiter will probably drink himself into a stupor wondering what went wrong.

You know what’s the worst part about asking somebody out? Trying to play guessing games with other people’s emotions. Does she like me? Is she smiling just to be friendly or is there something else to it? Is she flirting because she’s interested in me, or is it just because she’s a flirt? Will I jeopardize our friendship by asking her out? Am I overanalyzing the situation?

Then there’s the “asking out” part. You’ve got to be tactful about it, so she can refuse without creating an embarrassing situation for both of you. “Will you go out with me” just doesn’t cut it. “Would you mind going out for a cup of coffee this afternoon?” is better, because she can make up an excuse without having to say she’s not interested in you.

The rejection hurts just as much, but you can pretend to brush it off as if it weren’t a big deal and save the crying fits and suicide attempts for later that evening.

Being rejected is one of the most soul-crushing experiences in the world. I can’t imagine not wanting to go on a date with an unattached woman around my age, even if there’s no hint of immediate chemistry, because the point of dating is to find out if said chemistry exists. Even if you think you’re not compatible with someone, one date can’t hurt, right? You might discover that your suiter is different than your first impressions led you to believe.

So when a single woman around my age turns down a date, I can’t help but wonder why she wasn’t willing to even give me a chance. Is it because I smell bad? Is there something scary about my manner of speaking? What did I do/say wrong? Did I come on too strong? Not strong enough? Maybe she has emotional problems. Yeah that’s it. Or she’s a lesbian. Even better.

What I would like to see is a society where both sexes must suffer equally through this emotional minefield. That means that if a woman is interested in a man, she should ask him out. No passive-aggressive hints. No waiting until he makes the first move. No playing mind games. No worrying about seeming too forward, because frankly, I don’t know a single guy who wouldn’t love to be asked out on a first date.

I’m not saying women should carry all the burden, but 50% would be nice.

Anyway, I can’t be too angry now, since a member of the elite 10% of women who actually have the balls to take the initiative has made her interests known to me.

Thanks again Stacy. Even if things don’t work out, I appreciate the courage it took to ask me out and I will always be grateful for that.

And to all the women in my life who’ve been attracted to me but never had the courage to do anything about it: Your loss. You should have taken a chance. If you end up with some loser simply because he happened to by the guy to ask you out, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

2

So you disagree with The Rules approach to landing a mate, then?

3

Let me say, June. I am next to bankruptcy, 42 years old, long hair, scraggly beard. Overweight. I had the same negative thoughts as you about women in general, til about a year ago… Then I met a woman that took the time to see ME. She took the time to get to know me… and I suspect like you… I am not such a bad person. ramble ramble… It CAN happen for you, dude. I didn’t believe it, and still it did. I am happier than I have EVER been! EVER! Never give up! Never give up! Never give up! :slight_smile:

4

Grrr…don’t go there. Go here. This guy, David DeAngelo, actually mentions The Rules by name, and teaches men how to turn everything in that book around on women to help land them.

5

Maybe she just doesn’t want to date.

I don’t want a boyfriend right now and I don’t see myself wanting one in the future. It is annoying how a lot of guys can’t seem to understand this simple attitude and keep asking me out although I have expressed many times that I am not interested.

If I want to date, I’ll let you know. And I do try to be forward, just because I know how clueless a lot of guys are. If I want to fuck you, trust me, you’ll know.

A lot of guys don’t like ‘aggressive’ girls though. I originally held back before I realized that if they didn’t like ‘aggressive’ girls, then they probably wouldn’t like me.

But yeah, I feel for you guys, since most of my female friends seem to enjoy making relationships as crazy as possible.

Good luck, June!

6

Personally I always used the pray and spray dating method. Say if I’m in a club/bar with 100 people in it. Let’s say it’s the kind of bar/club I usually end up in and the breakdown is 60 guys 40 women.

And then there’s about 20 women that are actually not there with some guy.

Of those 20 women let’s say I find 10 attractive.

In these situations I’d ask all 10 of them out if I had to.

And even after I had a date set up I might collect phone numbers, if I woman gives out her number that says she’s probably pretty willing in this day and age.

As it is, my method resulted in a lot of flat out “no,” “sorry nos”, “no thanks” et cetera type things. At the very beginnign that’s hard and there’s no lying about it. After rejection number 10-15 it’s just like “eh, I’ve learned if I ask enough out one will say yes, no use dwelling on the misses.”

7

wow. Where to even start. First of all, I don’t hear anything so much anti-feminist or anti woman about your rant, as mass frustration and pain with the situation.

Having said that, I think you’re really reading some rather mean spirited, or at the very least thoughtless spirited, mindsets onto the women who have to deal with the other side of this issue.

You said:

The above is FAR from reality for most women. Waiting to be asked out is not being “luxuriously detached”. And plenty of blood, sweat and tears are shed in searching for a way to figure out “is he gonna ASK ME OUT”??? How can I get his attention, let him know I’m interested without seeming too forward? And so on ad nauseum. The double standard sucks for us too.

Perhaps the 1% of the female population that are movie star perfect prom princesses, they might sit up there “luxuriously detached”. But somehow, especially based on what some actual movie stars share, I doubt it, I think their hearts and hopes are on the line just as much as we less movie starish girls.

People can’t flip a switch and make themselves be attracted to someone when they’re not. Even so, when we have to say “I’m sorry, no”, it isn’t with some lackadaisical “Oh look how popular I am” fervor or something. It generally feels awful to have to turn someone down. Even worse when there is NOTHING whatsoever wrong with him. Sometimes “IT” just isn’t there. And when “IT” isn’t there with a perfectly nice, perfectly cute, funny sweet man. It is NOT some “oh well, I just blew off another boy, ho hum”. It’s a soul searching “what the hell is WRONG with me, why can’t I feel “IT” for the men that I ‘should’ feel ‘it’ for”??? And so on. And while we may not drown our sorrows in Jack Daniels, you can bet that some of these turn downs call for a pint of B&Js from time to time.

Don’t you realize that those of us waiting and hoping to GET asked out feel the same? Same agonizing wait and hope, different questions and wonderings.

If I say this, giggle at this or that joke, wear this or that, will he notice me? Will he realize I like him? Will he be interested enough to ASK ME OUT ALREADY"??? Is he making jokes that make me laugh because he’s working himself up to ask me out"? Does he think I’m only flirting, doesn’t he notice that I only laugh at HIS jokes, talk this much with HIM etc?

Maybe this is where a lot of women differ from a lot of men. I don’t always know when someone is a possible. And in that case, I will at least go out with them.

But I DO know, INSTANTLY and beyond the shadow when someone is a “NO WAY IN HELL”. And again, if a man IS a “no way in hell” it doesn’t mean that there is anything wrong with the way he is, just that there is no meshing and it’s very apparent to me. Like being hit over the head with a brick apparent.

Again, it has nothing to do with anything you’re doing wrong, but only that of the "it’ factor. You know, it’s really curious. (I mod a small romance advice group online), that of all the people I’ve talked to about the agonies of dating (including my own experiences). More men seem to be of the “any old warm body, and then we’ll SEE if there’s something after that” mindset. And more women need to have that “IT” before they’ll give it a shot. And more women seem, like I describe above, to just KNOW when it’s not gonna work, right off the bat, at first conversation or glance.

They already DO “suffer equally”. It wasn’t OUR idea to make the courting thing take the form it has. That of man asking woman out first. WE hate it, and it’s emotional toll and agonies TOO. As I have described above. Do you mean that you’d like them to ACT equally? To take equal roles? I wish that it could be done, and done instantly, but what is there, is what we have to work with.

I’m not saying women should carry all the burden, but 50% would be nice.

Wow, do you actually KNOW 100% of the females, so that you know that only 10% do this? I’m one too. Despite being ancient enough that it’s 10 times more frightening for me as it is my young genx sisters. I was raised in a time when not only did women wait for the man to call, any girl who didn’t was thought of as too forward, and possibly even as loose and easy.

Have you asked out every girl you were interested in? If you have, then rejection was even moreso nothing more than the law of averages and chemistry. If you haven’t, then it’s very silly and misguided of you to pit someone for doing what you too have done many times in your life, that of merely being human, and afraid of rejection.

Remember, WE didn’t choose this form of dating rules. Society as a whole somehow brought this into being a long time ago. BOTH sexes suffer from it, albeit in different ways. The bottom line is, that it’s not easy on either side of the fence.

I HATE dating with a passion. I wish that I could describe my hatred of the whole game and get out the frustration and anger with it with the ease you do. But it’s not something that women made up to make men miserable, it’s something our long ago grandparents brought into being. And is now plagueing both sexes.

ANYWAY, I hope your date with Stacy goes very very well.

8

Look, bub, I’m female, well out of my 20’s, and I’ve been somewhat of a social troglodyte for most of my life. Let me tell you, the social burden is not 100% on the man, nor is the worry.

A year ago, there was this fellow I’d seen around. He’s a genuine nice guy, sweet, shy, with a nice smile and a good sense of humour. We’re members of the same organization, so I took to going to events I thought he’d be at. Sometimes he was; sometimes he wasn’t. When he was, we seemed to hit it off fairly well. Finally, while I was doing some volunteer work for a local animal shelter, I realized there was something going on that afternoon that I thought he’d be at. It started before my volunteer stint finished, but it was casual, so I went there straight from my volunteer work. I was wearing jeans and a sweatshirt and was covered with dog hair and dog drool. Still, I screwed up my courage, found something that could pass for an opening on a dark night in a thick fog, and handed him my phone number. His response was to call his sister and say, “She gave me her phone number. What does this mean?”

If you think for one minute I wasn’t scared, afraid of rejection, etc., you’re dead wrong. When he turned up a half hour late for our first date, I was thinking he’d changed his mind, he wasn’t going to show, and I was a complete idiot for thinking he might be interested in me. When I told him, on a later date, that I was curious about how he kissed and he turned me down, I wished the parking lot of my apartment building would open up and swallow me whole. I felt like the biggest fool in creation. He did, by the way, eventually decide to kiss me, and at my age, I’ve found myself in love.

Canvas Shoes has already told you a bunch of good stuff. I assure you, women suffer just as much as men; it’s just that we don’t tell you. I’m a sensible, logical person. Nevertheless, I did buy a special outfit to go out with this guy on Valentine’s Day only to decide not to wear it because it didn’t look good enough.

I’ve been interested in fellows who aren’t interested in me and wondered what went wrong; I’ve been around fellows who are interested in me and not returned that interest. No, I haven’t always told them why if I’ve known, sometimes because it would hurt them, sometimes because they should work it out, sometimes both. I’m sorry. I’m not obligated to go out with you just because you’re interested in me, nor am I obligated to go out with you again if I go out with you once or even ten times. There are men whose interest I’ve wished I could return – they’re also nice guys. I haven’t been able to and it would be fair to them if I faked it. Before I read the standard accusation of not getting to know these guys well enough, I’ll point out that I sang in a six person church choir with one of them for over a year.

Congratulations on the date, and I hope it goes well. Trust me, if she’s worth having, she’ll be doing just as much worrying and wondering as you are, including wondering if she was too forward when she asked you out. If she doesn’t, well, why are you dating her? (Yes, I know one of the answers.)

Good luck!
CJ

9

Let’s say you ask a woman out and she says no. There are two reasons why she might decline your offer:

1.) She’s an evil, manipulative, horrible, dirty, disgusting, brutal, bottom-feeding, trashbag cunt
2.) You’re not her type

If a woman turns you down because she fits #1, good riddance. You don’t want to date her anyway. She’ll most likely break your heart.

If she says no because she fits #2 (far more likely IME), that’s okay. I know that I’ve run into women who have thrown themselves at me but they just aren’t my type. That doesn’t mean I hate them or think they’re weak. They just aren’t my type. If this is the reason she turns you down, just move on to the next one, because eventually you’ll meet someone who is exactly your type and things will be blissful. Bottom line, you’ve got to play the odds.

10

There are many women who don’t ask men out because they’re told the following:

  1. If a guy is interested in you, he’ll ask you out. If he doesn’t ask you out, he’s not interested. So don’t ask him.
  2. Even if he is interested, if you ask him out you’ll scare him off. So don’t ask him.

I don’t really believe either of those (there are guys that are just plain shy or scared). But a lot of women do. For those women, it is (as CanvasShoes said) pretty stressful in itself. Waiting to be asked out sucks. You can’t really do anything but flirt and try to act appealing. It’s sometimes preferable to have control yourself.

11

Good responses so far – I’m not going to address anything specific, although I certainly realize that dating can be emotionally taxing to say the least, whether you’re male or female.

I’d like to clarify one point that’s been bothering me since I made this post. Why did I even bring up feminism? Weren’t guys expected to shoulder most of the “first date” burden before feminism came along?

Yes. But the difference 50 years ago is that men actually got something in exchange for that burden, i.e. intrinsic dominance. It was assumed that men were intellectually and emotionally superior to women, and it was expected that a woman would be the subservient partner in the relationship.

That said, I have no problem with the 50/50 partnership of the modern “ideal” relationship, but I can’t deny that the idea of dating a malleable, obedient love slave is slightly appealing. It might even make the burden of initiating the relationship somewhat more bearable. :smiley:

I guess my argument is this: now that the balance of power has shifted in favor of women, traditional modes of thinking, at least in regards to dating, are giving men, especially shy ones such as myself, a distinct disadvantage.

I could probably cite 50 different examples of how traditional gender roles have been a pain in the ass for both sexes ever since the feminist revolution has been shaking things up, but this is my rant, concerning my petty problems, so forgive my tunnel vision.

Okay, I will respond to one irresistible point, made by CanvasShoes:

Good point. By pitting those women who’ve failed to ask me out because of fear, I’d be a hypocrite to deny that I’m also pitting myself, because there have been many occasions, especially in high school when I was sorely lacking in self-esteem, when I made exactly the same mistake. I think there’s a bit of self-loathing implicit in my last statement.

I guess I’m just sad that I missed out on so many opportunities because of fear (whether it be my own or someone else’s). In my senior year of high school, one of my classmates wrote in my yearbook that she’d had a crush on me a few years earlier, but she’d been too reticent to act on her feelings. It’s written somewhat jokingly, but I don’t think I’m wrong to assume it contains a grain of truth.

Even today, I can’t read that entry without feeling tremendous regret. I liked her too, and she seemed like a really fun person. I could write a book about the great times we never had together.

12

Hey June: Don’t make waves, man! It works out pretty well the way it is now.
Want to get to know a woman better? ask her out. Not interested? don’t ask her out. It’s a double standard allright, but it’s heavily weighted in favor of us guys.

I have a sister that was two years behind me in school, and I got to see this situation from both sides. Believe me, we’ve got the best of it. From watching my sister, I’d say it really sucks to walk around for weeks moaning about “Why won’t he ask me? Does he even know I’m alive?”

I much prefer a quick and simple “No” to all that. While rejection isn’t a great feeling, it’s not the total pits either. There’s always another day and another woman to ask out and in my experience, a lot more of 'em say yes than no. :wink:

13

I think that’s kind of the point of the OP. If a women is asking the tormenting question to herself, “is he gonna ASK ME OUT?”, break the social rule, and BE FORWARD! This doesn’t mean that you need to be a skank. Just come out and ask us out for lunch. Any sane man would not mind. And if he’s freaked out by it, then move on.

14

I think I speak for all us geekboys when I say that the idea of being asked out by a gal appeals to us very much. Oh, sure we’ll get around to asking out the ones we’re interested in eventually, but growing a spine takes months, and lots of dairy products.

Y’know, just something to keep in mind.

  • CandidGamera, King of the Geeks.
    (A watery tart lobbed a pocket protector at me…)
15

Just friendly advice.

I would suggest that if there is an uncomfortable lull in the conversation, that you DO NOT launch into your double standards diatribe. There are a lot of false assumptions in there, but more important there is a lot of negativity.

Something very good happened to you: A girl you liked, asked you out on a date

You could have: Posted in MPSIMS that you were asked out by a girl, and received congratulations by many.

Instead you choose to: Post a rant on how you, as a male, carry an unfair burden in the dating game. That all those other girls who didn’t ask you out missed out on a good thing, and are probably with losers now.

See what I’m saying? When something good happens, celebrate it. Don’t use it as a opportunity to reflect on all the bad. Why would a woman want to date a male version of “Debbie Downer”?

16

So far, this is the only part that I really take issue with. I’ve never been attracted to anybody for the money. Few people I know ever have been. I think if you (general you) assume that women have their eye on the prize - the trophy being your money, not your personality - you’re going to have to deal with a lot more rejections. Of course, there are the bitches who will actually do stuff like that, but I’d like to think they’re the exception rather than the rule. (Still, it is true that many people find it more acceptable for a woman to be a stay-at-home mom rather than a man be a stay-at-home dad, yet I see no problem with either.)

As for the rejection bit: most women I know, myself included, like to be interested in the guy to accept a date. If I’m not interested, I won’t accept. Of course, I wouldn’t accept now anyway because I’m married, but that’s beside the point. I’m not somehow obligated to accept any and all offers to go out with someone, and whenever I’ve rejected someone I’ve always felt incredibly guilty because usually they’re very nice and funny and I wish like hell I could be attracted. But if I’m not, I’m not, and no amount of coersion will make me miraculously attracted.

17

Lest anyone think that there are not women out there who only care about a guy’s money, I give you Exhibit A.

18

Dude, she’s just not that *into * you.

19

I understand that it sucks to be a woman, but that doesn’t diminish the very valid rant that men can make. I went through a ten year period where I would ask out maybe 10 women per year. That’s 100 rejections in a row. I can’t tell you how much that sucked.

Anyway, as a small side rant, what’s up with paying for dinner on a first date? It seems that there are two types of women:

  1. “I can’t believe he didn’t pay for the whole thing! He’s a cheapskate who won’t treat me right. I’ll never date him again.”
  2. “I can’t believe he paid for the whole thing. He must be a sexist pig who’ll never treat me as an equal. I’ll never date him again.”

Trouble is, you can never tell what type she is going to be, but I have a knack of always guessing wrong. You can’t win for losing!

Actually, there is a third type: “Don’t worry, it’s on me!” Beware this type. It means that she doesn’t want to see you again, and doesn’t want to be beholden for even as much as a good night kiss. Forget her, and while you’re at it, order dessert.

Dating sucks, except for the rare times when it doesn’t.

20

I think it’s more than you think. I’d estimate it to be close to 50%. Of course, that means that half of all women are dateable, so that’s still pretty good.