In the topic of dating and relationships, I have noticed some opinions expressed by some women, which I found surprising:
[ol]
[li]If they faced a choice of having to be the ones to initiate to men, or being forever alone, they’d rather be forever alone.[/li]
[li]If they knew a single man who was Mr. Right for them in every way, and they were attracted to him, and he had all the qualities they wanted, but they had to initiate to him or else nothing would happen - they *still *wouldn’t initiate to him. Either *he *initiates to them, or else nothing happens.[/li][/ol]
Now, adding in all the necessary caveats - “not all women,” “some men are like that too,” “it depends on the person and situation,” “everybody is different,” etc. etc. - is this really how many women feel? That they have such a strong aversion to having to initiate to a man, that they would rather be forever alone, even if there were a very suitable man for them in their social circle?
This doesn’t even quite make logical sense.
If he will not initiate, then he:
- Doesn’t like her, so that makes him NOT the perfect person for her, or
- He lacks the confidence and backbone to initiate. Considering that she likes guys that do initiate, he CAN’T be Mr. Right.
But by that same logic, that applies in every instance of a man having to ask out a woman as well. Someone’s got to do it.
Anyway, my point isn’t to turn this into a dating/relationship thread - we have hundreds of those - just want to ask if women, in general, do tend to be much more averse to being the initiators, than men.
I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that it’s an ingrained attitude among women of my generation (born mid-1950s) since we were well-schooled in how things *should *be done. Good girls don’t chase boys. That attitude would continue if they told their daughters what their mothers told them.
I thought I was crazy daring when, at 20, I asked the guy I was dating if he wanted to go to a movie and I paid!! Today, were I not married, I think I’d make a first move if I was interested in a man.
:dubious:
Are you kidding? this is a classic cultural trope, i.e. the man who pines desperately for a woman but is reluctant to take the risk of revealing that he wants to be with her. Poems, songs, movies, and entire TV series have revolved around this idea.
We’re ignoring a grey area. I know many women who haven’t asked a guy out on a date per se, but who have, in the interest of furthering the potential relationship, asked him to attend a dinner party she’s hosting or to join a group (including her) going for drinks or to some event or just to hang with her and other friends. Guys do this sort of thing, too, of course. It’s still making the first move, but it isn’t, technically speaking, asking someone out on a date.
I think I’ve posted this before;
The lil’wrekker wanted a certain guy to ask her to his Senior prom. She tried all the hints. Had her girlfriends to get in on putting a bug in his ear. Didn’t work. I got so tired of hearing her daily laments. In a exasperated tone I said " Call him right now and ask him to take you to the prom!" She did, he said yes, we bought the prom dress. It was successful. They are now engaged.
Moral: sometimes exasperation pays off!
I’ve found, through personal experience, if a man is interested, he will make the first move. Not even asking her out, but approaching first Every time I have made the first move, he wasn’t interested. A woman feels wanted if she knows he pursued her.
That’s what Sadie Hawkins dances are for! I was quite shy about asking out (certain) women in college, and was relieved when SH came around and got asked to go to the dance. It didn’t go far; I honestly think she liked me a lot more than liked her. At least Sadie Hawkins was a way around the anxiety of being allowed to ask out a man.
I am ok with neither party doing anything sufficiently overt or sufficiently formulaic that it constitutes “asking out”, and likewise with neither party ever doing anything sufficiently blatant that it constitutes “coming on to” or “making a pass at”, if we can do a co-reactive dance and slink along smoothly and gracefully to a romantic conclusion without such things.
But if someone’s gonna have to do those things, it ain’t gonna be me. There’s no built-in reason it should have to be the person with the male anatomical bits, and I’ve been on strike about it since I was 21 (and a virgin at the time, btw).
I can only speak from my own experience; I have no way of knowing how averse women in general are to taking the initiative. I also have no way of knowing what percent of the women who didn’t put the moves on me were harboring some degree of interest in me and/or would have reacted favorably if I had taken the initiative instead of being on strike.
A tiny fraction of women very loosely in my age range have either taken blatant initiative or have played in more subtle ways that I reciprocated until we ended up doing stuff without anyone taking blatant initiative. The latter situation sounds good on paper but it can be exasperating. In some cases she expressed that exasperation and discontinued the process, which I interpreted as exasperation that I would not take a clue and do something blatant; less often, the woman involved decided to cut to the proverbial chase herself and said or did something, most often in a way that conveyed “we already discussed this nonverbally”, but still being the one to finally acknowledge it.
That has of course confined me to that tiny fraction, but I knew that going in.
As I already said, I have no way of knowing for sure how many of the women who didn’t try to wine and/or bed me weren’t trying because they had zero interest in me / hadn’t remotely considered me as a possibility / etc.
Dunno how common it is, but yeah, I personally would never ask a man out. I like being single just fine, and I don’t consider being “forever alone” a particularly bad way to spend my life. I DO consider rejection a very negative experience, the sort of thing I would very likely spend months or years obsessing about, and I think rejection is by far the most likely outcome if I were to ask someone out (both because I figure men will generally make some kind of move if they are interested, and because I am fairly average-looking and a little weird personality-wise, so most men are probably not interested). The risks simply outweigh the potential rewards, by a very large margin.
I’ve been the one to ask the guy out at least half of the time, and among my 20-something daughters and their friends, this has also been the norm. Possibly more so. I’m very surprised to hear otherwise.
Is it as hard for a man, particularly a shy man, to ask out a woman as it is for a woman to do the same? I’m not sure there’s any way to tell, but I’ve always wondered.
Maybe it’s hard to ask a person of the opposite sex for a date. But it’s not so hard to invite a friend to go do something with you. And I have done that.
So one of those friends ends up being my husband. We now can argue about what was actually our first date, because those things we did together as friends, those weren’t dates–were they? And we can’t remember who asked whom.
But also, “forever alone” is not a death sentence. Particularly for women. Single women, in general, are the happiest people of all, with married women at the bottom of the list after married men and single men.
Wow, that’s a lot of daughters.
Yes, this. I hardly ever ask guys out but I do have ways of showing interest. I might mention how the coffee place on the corner makes a good mocha latte and ask him if he’s tried it. This might result in us heading over there for coffee without either one of us really asking the other out. Or you might invite him to join the group then stay close and maybe “cull him from the herd”.
Initiating a date doesn’t have to be some big momentous sweaty awkward moment. You can just sort of make it happen without going through all that.
I’ve been the askee more often than not. I’ve even asked men out that didn’t realize it was a date. One asked if I wanted to take different cars; another wanted to bring another woman. I only remember one man turn me down, and he actually began with a sincere thank-you.
But somewhere along the line I decided not to. (Not that I really abided by that decision.) If we connected and dated for awhile, the men would not take the relationship seriously but wouldn’t end it.
As for the tactic I took up, at the risk of stereotyping, I’d give plenty of signals, including inviting to friendly get-togethers. Either they weren’t interested (then move your damn leg when I press mine against it, Ross!), didn’t pick up on it (see the first two examples), or were too shy or inhibited. In any case, he was not for me.
So, how come you had to hit her on the butt with a two x four before she saw reason?
ETA: I originally wrote but, which might be part of the problem. I’d ask him, but, but, but…
My husband was asked out a few years back. I would have no problem asking a man out as I don’t believe in the traditional - a man is the one who asks the other person out and pays for the date.