Guys ask girls out- useful convention, or unfair burden?

This is a hijack of this thread, which was starting to get derailed by a discussion on the social convention of guys asking girls out.

My question is, is this a useful social convention, and is it an unfair burden on men? For the sake of example, let’s use the example of two people who are in a social club together for several months, have interacted casually but not spent a lot of time alone together, and the proposed date is to a coffee shop, with the potential to move on to dinner if things are going well.

My position is that yes, it is a useful convention. To begin with, it provides a reasonable way of quickly assessing the potential partner’s social skills. While not everyone who is awkward with women is also awkward in general, a guy who is awkward with women is more likely to be generally awkward than a guy who is comfortable and relaxed. Furthermore, asking a woman out provides her with a chance to gauge how well you are able to read her emotional signals, which is useful information. A guy who is completely unable to tell if you are into him or not is more likely, speaking generally, going to be completely unable to read other important signals- like “I’d rather not have sex with you right now” or “This party is lame and it’s time to go home” or “This relationship is moving to fast for my comfort,” etc. It’s more fun to be with someone who “gets” you, and that starts on day one. Women, in particular, have a special interest in making sure that they are with someone they have good rapport with in the service of safety. “Off” people tend to feel off, and while it’s unfortunately some perfectly nice people also feel “off,” for a lot of women, differentiating good off from bad off is a risk they’d rather not take.

Again, we are talking generalities. But in dating you are often making snap decisions about people you don’t know very well. You need to have some way to weed people out, unless you are really willing to go out with every construction worker who hollers at you.

The second, probably more controversial reason, is that people in general value something they’ve had to work for more than something that comes easily. Men tend to have to put in the “work” in the first part of the relationship when they are first dating. Women tend to put in pretty equal work in latter parts as the relationship becomes more formal and committed. Many men would accept a date from a woman they were not especially attracted to or interested in having a relationship with on the hopes of easy sex, so a man accepting a woman’s invitation doesn’t tell her much about his intentions. But the converse is not true- the little investment that asking a woman out entails weeds out at least some of the guys who are just taking shots in the dark at anything female.

But is it truly that big of an investment? I’d argue for socially competent people in the state to be dating, it is not.

I’m applying for a job that 500 highly qualified people apply for, and they will accept around 40 new hires. Through this I will go through six rounds of interviews. Statistically, I probably will not make it. Do I declare it’s too big of a risk and not apply? Of course not. That’d be dumb. I put my application in and hope for the best. I will be disappointed if I don’t get it, of course. But nobody promised me a life free of disappointment, and a bit of risk is the only way to get anywhere.

In other words, if people were as timid about job hunting as they were about dating, the world would stop going around. And in my thinking, being rejected for a job you are qualified for stings at least as hard as being rejected for a date. There are plenty of legit not-personal reasons why someone might not want to pursue a romantic relationship with me that are not personal- maybe I’m just not their type. But for a job I’m qualified for…well, damn, it means I just didn’t measure up and other people were outright better than me.

Yes, there is risk to asking a girl out, and rejection sucks for everyone. But if you are emotionally balanced and in the right place for a relationship, it should be a momentary sting, not something you really freak out about. After all, there are plenty of reasons to reject someone’s advances that are not personal, and there are plenty of women in the world. All dating is essentially a numbers game, and now and then you are going to strike out. Emotionally balanced people can recognize that it’s not the losses that count, but the one time that you win big.

And if you are so invested in asking someone out that it does cause significant mental distress, I’d argue you probably are not in a healthy state to be dating. To me, that sounds like you have built up the relationship too much too soon, or you are not stable and independent enough to have a really equal relationship. Nobody wants to be in a relationship with asymmetrical desires. And if you are being actually hurt by a woman who rejects your advances, then by definition that is a situation of asymmetrical desires.

As for the “players” mentioned in the thread…well, I wouldn’t be too harsh on them. Players can show a lady a good time and be a lot of fun, as long as the woman knows what she is getting into and keeps her head on straight. More importantly, most “players” are guys having fun until they meet the right girl to settle down with. There is no crime in that, and they do tend to find willing and enthusiastic partners. And if you do happen to be that right girl, you are going to be pretty glad he tried that dumb pick up line on you. Anyway, I do think a lot of pick-up-artist techniques are based on misogyny and can be pretty gross. But I do also think there is some good in it, and socially awkward guys could actually benefit from reading some of that stuff and keeping what works for them. Pick up artist techniques basically teach guys to not invest too much in any given woman before she has reciprocated, to play the numbers game, to be comfortable approaching women and making moves, without putting them on a pedestal. The misogynist rhetoric they wrap this stuff up in is pretty gross, but the basic techniques actually do work pretty well and for the most part are ethically neutral.

So why all the hate for them?

If someone has a difficulty with public speaking are they also awkward socially?

Two, you are a woman. If you could keep the dating system the same, but switch the roles and expectation that men and women play currently or keep it the same, which would you choose and why?

Of course, there is always the radical alternative of, oh, using words to communicate the sentiment. Including the first query as to interest in general.
Unless part of your point is that you should not have to resort to actually saying it. Then I got nuthin’ :slight_smile:

Women should ask men out, here is why:

To begin with, it provides a reasonable way of quickly assessing the potential partner’s social skills. While not everyone who is awkward with men is also awkward in general, a gal who is awkward with men is more likely to be generally awkward than a gal who is comfortable and relaxed. Furthermore, asking a man out provides him with a chance to gauge how well you are able to read his emotional signals, which is useful information. A gal who is completely unable to tell if you are into her or not is more likely, speaking generally, going to be completely unable to read other important signals.
But is it truly that big of an investment? I’d argue for socially competent people in the state to be dating, it is not.

Yes, there is risk to asking a guy out, and rejection sucks for everyone. But if you are emotionally balanced and in the right place for a relationship, it should be a momentary sting, not something you really freak out about. After all, there are plenty of reasons to reject someone’s advances that are not personal, and there are plenty of men in the world. All dating is essentially a numbers game, and now and then you are going to strike out. Emotionally balanced people can recognize that it’s not the losses that count, but the one time that you win big.

Conventions such as these are limiting to both men and women. You should deal with others as individuals, not genders.

It is, obviously, useful to women, and detrimental to men. Whether or not you consider that to add up to “good” or “bad” is a question of with which (if either) gender your loyalties lie.

well, I’m glad you feel you’re in such a position to judge other people.

Who said that dating has anything to do with “fair” or “unfair”?

I don’t even understand the concept of “dating”, as Americans use it. I know MichaelEmouse’s started a thread about it, asking what that’s all about; I happen to belong to the same culture as he, and it’s also rather alien to me.

I like even sven and everything, but reading her posts, she does seem to be the kind of young woman who knows she’s God’s gift to men, and is proud of it. And she’s probably willing to act like a bit of a bitch to have boys “prove” that they deserve her. I guess her game of “let them come to me and I’ll reject those who aren’t worth my time” works for her, but it may not work for everyone.

Couple of things up there I bolded up, are things I would not presume are always necessarily so and if not, people will get hurt.

As to the hate, I would say for many the misogynistic rhetoric dooms them from the start. Too much has been invested in making both males and females progress past the notion that we are to be “played with”. So much work to drum in consciousness of equal human dignity and it riles that now both from the male and female side come those who’d say it’s all a “Game” where you succeed if you know “the Rules”. No, it’s not a game, it’s our lives. Making another human a pawn or her/is emotions a prize in a “game”? No thank you. Against a certain “rule” named for a precious metal.

For another thing, I can imagine that for another segment of the public, “Players” are sort of the male equivalent of the “Slut”. They go out there and have their hot fun and good times while making it hard for those “playing fair” to measure up. They’d say look at your very statement: the level-headed lady will be shown a good time and have a lot of fun as long as that’s all she expects. They’d ask, once you eventually meet some sweet, steadfast, guy or gal that becomes your life-mate then because that is the superior outcome, there should be absolutely no problem with being able to say “Oh, my dearie is a nice companion who can read my moods, and is a great parent to the kids, but, woohooo, what hot fun did I have with the players/sluts back when!” ? In our culture many people don’t want to be “ethically neutral”, they want to be ethically “better”.

It is a rule that should be broken at every available opportunity. Your thesis has three basic flaws:

That doesn’t prove a thing. You don’t know if the guy is responding to your signals, or if he’s acting the same way he always does. A broken clock is right twice a day; that sort of thing.

“Hey, would you like to get some coffee, maybe dinner?”
“Eww, gross.”

“Hey, would you like to get some coffee, maybe dinner?”
“Get lost, creep.”

“Hey, would you like to get some coffee, maybe dinner?”
“Oh my God, you so totally get me.”

So what exactly are you bringing to this party? You want a guy that gets you; that’s understandable. Where in your lengthy analysis do you wonder if you get the guy? Will you be able to meet his emotional needs without explicit instruction? He does have them, you know.

It does, and there’s no reason for the suckiness to always be borne by guys.

I can weed people out by their reactions to me asking them out as well.

I say, equality works better for all of us. Of course it sucks to reject people but it also sucks to be rejected. Maybe we’d all be better people if we had to experience (or at least risk) both.

It’s a stupid convention. I always kind of thought so, but I’m female, shy and somewhat lazy, so I just went with it. I knew that in theory, I could ask guys out, but I never did. Then I came across a girl I wanted to date. With two people of the same sex, the rule didn’t apply, and I had no reason to think it was her job to do the asking. So I made the first move, and it turned out great - as of today we’ve been together for 7 months. If I’m single again in future, I think I’ll be more open to asking people of either gender out, now I know it’s not that hard and can definitely pay off.

Yes. It seems to me to be a convention better designed to select for men who are obsessive or emotionally callous; who simply don’t care about being rejected. The man who actually cares about how a woman feels is more likely to care if she rejects him.

Whatever. It worked for Richard Feynman, and it worked and is working for guys all over the world. The cat’s out of the bag with regards to pickup techniques. Better accept it and accept that it works, because it’s a part of male/female social interactions now and it’s not going away. It’s too effective not to.

I say this not as a PUA but as someone on the outside who appreciates the cerebral approach. I think it’s cool that guys are actually using social techniques in a focused way to attract women, instead of the old approach of just going into it blind.

I think this is a very good point. Assuming most guys would be willing to ask out only women that made a good enough first impression to be worth the emotional risk, but would be willing to date a much greater percentage of the women they meet, and assuming that some of those “second-tier” dates would lead to happy relationships, it seems to me that this convention will decrease net happiness in the world.

Or to put it another way–even sven, if the thread title was 'Girls shouldn’t ask guys out–useful social convention, or unfair burden?", would you feel the same way? Because you can’t have it both ways: if the “rule” is that it’s the guy’s job to do the asking, then a girl who asks is forward, pushy, or creepy. And that limits women to only dating men who ask them out, and if a woman is interested in a man she has to initiate the relationship through oblique hints and manipulations–not the best precedent for a relationship dynamic.

For an individual woman to personally prefer to wait to be asked out–one who is willing to forgo the opportunity to date any men who are not independently attracted enough to her to ask–is fine. But I can’t see how the convention that it’s the “right” way does anything but hurt a lot of women.

Economist!

And men, since it reduces the transactional scope for both.

I’m not sure it’s really about first and second tier. The easiest time I ever had asking a woman out was when all I thought of her was “meh, might be a good fuck”. I’m sad to say that most of the women I was quite interested in, I never asked out.

Boom headshot.

Sven, just because someone finds it difficult to ask a girl out doesn’t mean that doing so causes them ‘significant emotional distress.’ It just means they can’t phrase it right, are embarrassed, or hold back waiting for the right moment, and sometimes that means the opportunity passes.

And if someone can’t read body language very well, then that’s just a minor imperfection that you have to deal with, if you end up in a relationship with them. You just have to learn to state things explicitly rather than expecting them to ‘know.’

It’s bloody annoying as a lesbian, btw, the still-common practice of men doing the asking. Even though it’s becoming more common for women to do the asking, it’s not the norm, so lesbians have grown up in a heteronormative world where they’re not supposed to be the ones doing the asking. So it often ends up in stalemate. Getting drunk helps. :smiley:

I don’t think it is purely a social convention.

Sure, not every society allows people to casually hook up. But when they do, I don’t think they need to impose “men will ask women out”.
I think the general thing of women being fairly aloof and cautious wrt a relationship with someone they just met, and men needing to prove their suitability (though not overtly) is largely instinctive.