In response to the question “Why doesn’t god just prove to me that he/she/it exists?” I often get the answer that we would be deprived of free will if that were to happen. I do not understand this argument. The laws of the place I live in are crystal clear, and the punishment is easy to determine. I still can decide to steal a car. So if there is a god with a plan why not reveal it to us without the X-Files like secrets, particularly if we are going to be punished for behaving in the wrong fashion? I’m looking mostly here for discussion about the reasons a creator (should one exist) would keep this information from us. Feel free to speculate blindly with all manner of types of gods. Be denominationaly specific or don’t.
Assuming an intelligent designer in general, or your specific version of said designer, why would they keep themselves hidden? Put yourself in the position of the creator and try to come up with good explanations. A couple I can think of:
We don’t really matter to this entity. Like fish in a big tank or a video game, what happens is of no consequence other than entertainment to the creator. This option seems to rule out benevolence.
Language problems. I can’t communicate with my cat that well. Sometimes I can’t tell if he wants to be fed, pet, or to go out. Perhaps the language and manner in which such a creature communicates is incompatible. Maybe both ways. Maybe it can’t even understand us.
It is unaware of us. Perhaps the Universe is something on a mega scale that contains us as inconsequential byproducts. Just as I am unaware of any particular cell in my body even though I know it is there, I don’t really worry about the fate of any one cell.
The trickster. It gets off on watching creations twist and turn and struggle with no answers. I’m hoping this aint the case, but based on how I treat my Sim Cities (random acts of destruction are common when i get bored) I wouldn’t rule it out.
The impression I get of that general belief is that it’s somehow virtuous to have faith in the existence of G-d, and other doctrines without evidence. If G-d showed Himself and it was obvious He existed, there would be no more virtue in believing.
I get the same impression. However, in the Exodus story G-d revealed himself fairly explicitly (through miracles) and there was still free will - see the Golden Calf.
Seems to me this argument has sprung up as people got less credible and claiming that god showed up over there, out of sight, no longer worked.
You’ve got me all wrong then. I hate the literal character described in the Bible, mostly because of the book Deuteronomy. I personally suspect that that figure is purely mythological and has no basis in fact. I may be wrong, naturally.
I have had experiences that feel like a greater awareness helping me along, but am perfectly willing to entertain suggestions that this is just my own thoughts echoing in my head. Or perhaps it is something spectacular but not a god? Like an emergent intelligence created by the general human conciousness. Whatever it is, it is truly amazing when I feel it. I love this things involvement in my life, illusion or no. That’s not to say that if it is a real being that all of it’s actions are beyond judgement and it is instantly worthy of worship. Only that at times it has made my life feel epic.
If every minute detail was planned out than I have to wonder why pain and suffering must be so ingrained into the experience. If we are being judged, then making the rules crystal clear would be the way to go I would thing. How does the quote about god being a dealer in a poker room go? The lights are off, the cards are unmarked, and only he knows the rules. Why? How does knowing a rule will be enforced make free will disappear? How come so many people commit crimes when they know the rules? Why not spill the beans? What is so virtuous about blind belief? Why is scrutiny and evidence such a powerful way to make the world better if blind faith is the “best” thing?
I don’t know the creator (if it exists) well enough to hate it. I know that I hate pain, and cruelty, and tyranny, and death, and despair, and that all these things are part of existence.
Either way, this thread is to discuss the reasons a deighty may have for remaining an absentee landlord as the devil once put it . . .
That’s a bizarre thing to say. Par for the course.
“Why would a god hide itself from us?” is the overall topic, but more specifically, since the most common answer is “It would deprive of us of free will.” why would revealing itself take anything away from our ability to make decisions.
Your negativity and harsh tone are becoming pretty common when I post. Something to consider perhaps. Instead of taking a quick drive-by to insult or turn your nose up, how about adding something to the conversation or not saying anything at all? Of course there is always the pit if your feeling frisky . . .
I’m afraid you’re assuming a negative attitude where none exists. You do get on my nerves with your Czarcasmish taunting and ridicule, but I harbor no ill will toward you. I did attempt to apologize and excuse myself from your thread. Please be assured that my suggestion was not intended as criticism.
Sounded sarcastic. Sorry, I guess I misread it. I think the title of the thread is on point. It seemed you were implying my motivations were different from what the thread title would lead one to believe, and I just don’t see how.
I did, however, just noticed they are going over a very similar subject in the “God and Knowledge” thread, so if there any procedural errors here it would be a redundant thread.
The answer is, that if you knew with certainty that you couldn’t steal that car with impunity, you wouldn’t. Criminals only commit crimes because they think they can get away with it, and sometimes, they’re even correct about that.
A revealed G-d on the other hand, by definition omniscient (can’t hide from him), omnipotent (can’t escape him by superior force) and eternal (no statute of limitations, can’t outlive the witness), would genuinely hamper one’s free will to commit crimes. Of course free will would still exist in theory…but only in the context of conscious rebellion against G-d, not in the more mundane context of physical temptation.
You know, I have problems with the way the God of the Bible is presented. As a matter of fact, I would never willingly worship the God found in the Old or the New Testement. If that God knocked on my door this very minute and said “Believe in me or be punished for eternity,” I’d have to respondwith a simple “No thank you.”
Of course, I’ll never have that oppurtunity, because if he exists, he’ll never present himself to me. Which is just one more reason for me to believe he doesn’t.
Doesn’t this mean that if you are absolutely sure that God exists that you no longer have free will? So all theists either have no free will or are uncertain about the exitence of God? And if God is omniscient, even in the Revealed-God World won’t he know if you wanted to sin and would have if God was not revealed, and levy appropriate punishment?
Well, Chaim’s argument appears to be that if we knew the “punishment” for rejecting God and sinning, we would not do either. I dunno about that, I think genuine worship and love is difficult to force by offers of reward or threats of punishment. Also, while perhaps a thief may not steal a car if he knows he will get caught and punished, what if the punishment will not happen for 30 years? And he can ask forgiveness and make restitution any time within those thirty years to escape punishment? Well, that puts a different slant on it, I think. Also, I do not think certainty about outcomes removes free will. As Johnny Angel once said, if you offer a million people a choice between a pile of money and a pile of shit, all million may pick the money (excepting a few extreme coprophiliacs) but does that mean they did not have free will? I think if you’re going to levy punishment with a 100% degree of certainty, it’s only fair to let people know for certain that you’re going to do it.