Why would a true Democrat vote Republican? And the Fiery Primary Season of 2008.

Great Debates
61

Are you interested in the opinion of someone who’s previously voted Republican, but is… intrigued by Obama, but would never vote for Clinton? Because that’s where I’m coming from. And the war is a big part of the reason why.

I don’t mean to attack holmes , but I’ve seen this attitude on the board before, that you have to be 100% for or against the war and I think it’s wrong.

While I didn’t shed a tear to see Saddam overthrown, I’ve been horrified at the way this war has been run. Horrified at realizing that our country’s leader is a delusional fool who started this war simply to boost his own ego and to create a ‘legacy’ for himself.

Despite that, I oppose a unilateral pull-out. In my opinion, doing so would open the door to an Iraqi civil war that would end in a bloodbath far worse then the fighting going on now. And as much as I hate to see American soldiers die, I don’t value American lives more then innocent Iraqi ones. America is paying a price in blood for our leader’s foolishness.

Clinton has proposed a fast paced pullout of a year or less and has repeatedly antagonized Iran. She voted to mark the Iranian guard as a terrorist organization, and talked rather aggressively about nuking Iran earlier this year. Her campaign has been a mess, having no back up plan when things didn’t go to plan, being repeatedly caught in lies, and denying reality. She reminds me far too much of Bush to ever vote for her.

McCain intends to continue the occupation of Iraq. When the war was initially proposed I fully expected it to last 5 to 10 years anyway. You can’t overthrow a government, rebuild it from scratch, and not expect it to take a decent amount of time. My shock was more from the fact that the incompetents in charge weren’t planning for such a long occupation from the start. General Petraeus has apparently accomplished some modest improvements recently. If the situation continues to improve, and the people in charge actually listen to their military advisers, than a military solution may be possible. But it will be a long, slow process that will continue to drain both money and lives. This situation would not be ideal, but it would be better than civil war, in my opinion.

Obama wants to talk to the Middle East nations about Iraq. What I’m hoping this means is that he’s interested in a stable Iraq and will put avoiding an Iraqi civil war as a high priority even while he withdraws our troops. I’m mostly worried that I’m expecting too much from him. What Iraq needs is a miracle, and I don’t think a mere human politician can provide one.

So that’s why I’d never vote for Clinton, might vote for McCain, and might vote for Obama.

Not that what I vote is going to matter, I’d be shocked if Indiana didn’t go red in November.

62

Don’t worry, we’re all just trying to have a conversation…I guess I wasn’t clear enough; when I used the ‘generic’ war. I think there’s a lot of grey in there; but for me, the most important difference between McCain and Obama/Clinton is how they view our role in Iraq.

It seems to me, that McCain is seriously out of touch with the war effort. I think his repeated gaffs and lack of ability to say that he got his facts wrong, reminds me of the guy that’s in charge now and I find that troubling.

So when Hillary supporters say, they would rather vote McCain than Obama, when the difference between Hillary and Obama is relatively small; I think of the War…there is a clear line in the sand between Obama/Clinton and McCain and for me, trumps whatever ‘liberal’ leanings or hard feelings the Dems have.

Others may think of the economy, or the Court…but I think as you pointed out, how the Government has handled Iraq is a sin and if McCain surrounds himself with the same people; then how can we trust him not to make the same mistakes?

I think the economy is a mess, and I worry and the Court; but I really believe we need to get ourselves straight in the middle-east first and i don’t think that McCain’s the guy to do that; so for me, I couldn’t see not voting for whichever Dem wins the nomination.

63

Your faith in the spine of Congress embiggens me.

64

I think that all wars are horrifying and that anyone who doesn’t anticipate that a war will be horrifying is fooling themselves and hasn’t studied history. The Peloponnesian War was one stupid and horrifying clusterfuck after another. Yet it went on for 30 years. I take McCain at face value for his 100 years attitude. Even if it is interspersed with peace, it will be interspersed will horrifying episodes. If history teaches us anything, it is that wars are beyond stupid and will truly come back to bite everyone in the ass very hard.

Anyone who has not read and understood Thucydides should not hold a government position involving either diplomacy or war policy. Anyone who thinks international relations is like a game of Risk should stick with Risk games in Crawford (and grab Australia first.)

65

It’s not a question of spine. Americans seem to only get riled up for an unnecessary war every generation or so-- I guess it takes that long to forget the lessons learned last time. The American people won’t accept another such war so soon after the one in Iraq (which is actually still going on). The Congresscritters were afraid they’d get booted out of Congress if they didn’t vote for the Iraq AUMF, but it would be the exact opposite if the next president sought an Iran AUMF.

66

Personally, I regard Iraq at this point as a lesser issue. The way I see it, that horse has left the barn - we’re in Iraq now and we’re going to be stuck there for a while. Whoever is elected President isn’t going to bring the troops hom next January and isn’t going to keep them there forever and the specifics of how messy our withdrawal is depends on outside factors as much as on who’s in the Oval Office.

I’m more concerned about the special interests of the candidates. If McCain gets elected he’s going to owe favors to the same conservative issues that have been running things for too long. If anything, the fact that conservatives question McCain’s loyalty will be more reason for them to be insistent on pushing their agenda. Obama (or Clinton) won’t owe these people anything and will be able to ignore their demands.

67

I was talking about some of McCain’s verbage in his talk today with AIPAC. From his speech:

I don’t really like where my mind goes when I think about the implications of such words. I don’t think he will invade Tehran like Bagdhad…but a couple airstrikes here, a couple air strikes there…Oops we discovered a missle silo [wait it’s got corn in it] who cares bomb it! I know that’s silly, but I certainly feel more comfortable with Mr. Obama’s stance than McCains.

68

There is nothing in that speech that talks of air strikes. Ask Obama if he thinks that “the UN Security Council… should impose progressively tougher political and economic sanctions [on Iran]. Should the Security Council continue to delay in this responsibility, the United States must lead like-minded countries in imposing multilateral sanctions outside the UN framework.” I bet he would agree.

69

“The era of big government is over” Bill Clinton, 1996.

Pretty much every important Democrat is pro free market. Probably even Kucinich would say some pro-market things if asked. They aren’t the socialist workers party. But there’s being pro free market in a general sense and there’s libertarianism. It’s clear that Obama is more in favor of government intervention in the economy, protectionist trade agreements, and expensive social programs. He lays out his plans in his book and website. I don’t see how you can read them and come away thinking he’s a disciple of Hayek or Friedman, no matter who he’s getting economic advice from. I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

There are reasons a libertarian might prefer Obama to McCain. Withdrawing from Iraq, for one. But I’m just baffled that anyone might think he’s an economic libertarian, regardless of who he’s lending an ear to. Again, we’ll just have to disagree on this.

70

He might, I honestly don’t know. I only heard snippets on NPR, but when I read his entire speech I see McCain is either A) looking to strengthen his Jewish Constituency, or B) solidifying his hammer-handed foreign policies. I don’t want to have to send more of our guys and gals into the middle east than we already have to, and it would appear under McCain’s presidency that may be more of a fact than a possibility.

71

I don’t know that the vitriol between Clinton forces and Obama’s people has been of a particularly high degree. It has just been sustained far longer than anyone expected.

Have you really heard that much criticism of the Clinton camp from Obama’s campaign? They certainly didn’t like Bill’s reference to Jesse Jackson. And they have been puzzled by her tenacity. They’ve criticized her vote on the war, but have they really been all that personal?

I saw some very angry Democrats – Hillary supporters – on the news the other night outside the committee meeting, but I don’t think they were typical. (They didn’t seem to be particularly rational in what they had to say.)

When we see only the extremes covered, we tend to think that that is all that there is.

It won’t be long before Hillary and Obama become the best of friends. She will campaign with him and urge her supporters to vote for him. He will talk about his respect for her courage in staying in the fight. He will emphasize her value to the Democratic Party. They will both stress party unity. The Democrats have plenty of time to bind up their wounds.

McCain, whom I like for his rebellious voting record and his courage, will have plenty of time to show whether or not his problems with getting his facts straight is the death knell for him. I think he may be slowing down. His stance on the war would prevent me from ever voting for him.

I was a discontent Clinton supporter who became an Obama supporter.

72

You didn’t address my post at all with that reply, other to state you have some fear that McCain will send more troops to the M.E. But there is nothing in that speech that implies he will. As I said, Obama could just as easily have given that speech. Do you honestly think Obama would say, if asked, that we need to lessen the sanctions on Iran if they aren’t more cooperative with the US and the Europeans in our negotiations with them about the nuclear issue? Did you see the latest UN report about Iran and nuclear weapons?

Anyway, you’re a die-hard Obama supporter. You wouldn’t vote for McCain even if he promised to choose Obama as his Secretary of Defense and State combined. You’re a “true Democrat”. I’m not, and most Americans aren’t.

73

Not particularly. I also haven’t paid much attention the last 3 months or so and don’t know if she has moved or promised things differently. (A problem with the Clintons…but they do seem to follow through on what they say originally).

Clinton seemed to me to be liberal where it hits my liberalness (like national healthcare) but gives the impression that she is one tough cookie. I really do not think she’ll take crap from other countries like Obama might. I think she would be a good president in foreign affairs. Obama might be good…but he might be real bad as well (images of Carter dancing in my head).

McCain…doesn’t really appeal to my conservativeness and where he swings liberal is not really where I swing.

So…Clinton seems more in line with how I think. Not perfect by any stretch…but more in line. However, between Obama and McCain…well…not much of a choice but I guess it has to be McCain.

74

I don’t think Obama would lessen the sanctions on Iran, I think he would give a speech close to what McCain said, but I think there would be some fundamental differences in their approach. McCain says Obama is naive. He lacks experience in foreign affairs. I say that I trust Obama’s judgement to appoint a cabinet that would keep us safe, our interests in check and that would make the proper/prudent decisions when it comes to Iran.

I may be a die-hard Obama supporter but my eyes are wide open. I’m certainly not running on blind faith and if there one thing I understand it’s that this country needs to go in a new direction. I do not believe McCain will strengthen our economy, or bring us any closer to stabalizing our current economic woes.

And really, I grew up in a republican household where dad [navy sub-vet] voted republican down the line because that was what he believed. This is a new era, we are not in the cold war anymore, and you know what - with trepidation dad will vote Obama this fall. My eyes blew out of my head when I found that out.

Thing is I like McCain, I always have. He’s a good man, a war hero for OG’s sake - an all American! But is he what this country needs right now? Does his speech to AIPAC make him somehow an iron fisted masthead that should be trusted to fix what needs fixing? He was handed the repiblican nomination on a silver platter, that doesn’t mean he’s a shoe-in come november.

I know you are not saying that John - and I understand where you are coming from - I am more caught up with the idea that this country could truly change course in a matter of months, and I trust the democratic nominee to do that.

75

So to sum up:
Hillary - 2 pts (match on “liberalness”, match on “tough”)
Obama - 1 pt (assumed - he should also match on “liberalness”, not “tough”)
McCain - 0 pts (no match on either “liberalness” or “conservativeness”)

And yet somehow, you go from Hillary to McCain? Does not compute.

76

I see the errors of my cromulent ways. I had forgotten who Congress critters really looked after: themselves.

77

More like 2, -1, 0

78

deleted duplicate post

79

Just curious as to where Obama and Clinton differ on Healthcare for you since that is where you said her liberalness matched yours? I know when I have compared Clinton and Obama they were very close in so many ways–the big difference for me is how they have run their respective campaigns. Obama is very strong in that arena and that inspires me. So I guess I am not seeing how you would give her a 2, and McCain a 0 but Obama a -1? Objectively looking at their relatives positions on different issues it would see to be Clinton 2 Obama 1 and McCain 0.

Have you ever taken this quiz to identify where you stand with each candidate and their positions? I found it rather interesting

http://www.votebyissue.org/election2008/