In a current Pit thread (the subject of which is not relevant here), this comment got my attention:
This isn’t the first time I’ve heard this kind of story, and I have to say, I just don’t get it. Seems to me the appropriate response would be, “OK, then, buh-bye, it’s been fun; I’m off to the courthouse to marry my Jewish fiancee.”
Rubystreak, please understand I’m not passing any judgement on your parents – and I’m glad they eventually got together! – it’s just that, well like I said, I don’t get it.
I imagine the story would be different if instead of the church, they would have been shunned by a country club, or a grocery store, or a knitting circle… So what makes remaining “a Catholic in good standing” so all-fired important that one would choose this over the man she (presumably) loves?
For someone who takes their faith seriously, it’s because God and their relationship with God is absolutely the most important thing in their life. No quibble room there - ABSOLUTELY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. If they believe that the Church/religion they follow legitimately instructs on that faith, they will follow the Church’s teaching.
For many people their ties to church are very strong. I think you will find that many people do marry who they want regardless of their church.
I knew a guy who had a Jewish girlfriend but he was Christian. Her parents would not let them marry so you know what they did? They just lived together! Eventually he became a Jew and then her parents said they could marry so they did marry.
It’s more than the church/temple/what-have-you. Speaking as someone who chose love over the temple, my life has never been the same. I can never “go back home” - I will always be the one who married out, the odd one, the one whose SO can’t speak the language, doesn’t know the culture, etc. My family is always uncomfortable about him and always will be.
That’s a big choice and a lot to throw away - for love! I would still choose the same thing if I had a choice now, even knowing what I’ve lost, but I would certainly consider it much longer.
For a lot of people, particularly in earlier generations, the church was a much more active part of their lives than something they just did on Sunday mornings.
Immigrants probably attended an ethnic church, where their native language was spoken. Catholics, Lutherans and other denominations ran their own schools. Organizations like the Luteran Brotherhood (these days it’s called Thrivent) gave them a trustworthy place to invest their money, buy life insurance and take out a loan. The church was the social center of their neighborhood. Many of those who went on to college at least started by going to a church-affiliated school.
And that’s not even counting that whole Heaven/Hell thing.
Romances came and went but the church was a cornerstone of their lives.
Let’s put it this way. If marrying a certain person meant separating yourself from your family, friends and entire support network (let’s say you’d have to pull up stakes and move to a different part of the country, and everyone you knew was opposed to it, except for your fiance) how quickly would you say “OK, then, buh-bye, it’s been fun; I’m off to the courthouse to marry my Jewish fiancee.”?
This kind of thing was fairly common - see Fiddler on the Roof. In the '30s my aunt wanted to marry a Catholic. Fortunately my grandfather (who I think was a secret atheist) had no problems with it. My uncle was a big Dodgers fan, which was far more important to my grandfather than any religion nonsense.
I suspect a lot of this problem comes from religion professionals, who are far more interested in keeping the flock true than in individual happiness. I suspect they would say that the couple would not be happy unless religiously pure. When we got married my wife was interested in a ceremony with a rabbi and a Presbyterian minister, but the rabbi she consulted at her college told her marrying me like this would “kill me.” So, we got married in the Ethical Culture Society, with no mention of God, and I’m still here.
To me this denotes a distinction between your faith and some intolerant practitioners of your faith.
I see no reason you cannot maintain your faith in whatever and talk to your SO about it to achieve some understanding (even if your SO does not practice the same faith).
I am willing to bet you could find a church/temple/what-have-you that is accepting of your SO.
What you seem to have lost are a bunch of intolerant people who value their version of faith over the decisions you want to make for yourself about your life. Yeah, they may be friends and family and so hard to leave behind but then for my money good friends and supportive family would not ostracize you and make you uncomfortable for living your life as you choose.
That’s only part of the problem though. Sure she might be able to find another church/temple/what-have-you, but it’s a HUGE BIG DEAL to walk away from your own if it’s an intrinsic part of your life.
For some people, their entire family and entire social network is their church. Being expelled means losing everyone who has a meaningful connection in your life. It’s more like losing your entire family. You can’t just rifle through a phone book and replace your family, can you? Same sort of thing.
A buddy of mine from high school left his church when he was old enough to decide Catholicism wasn’t his thing. His mother’s entire family (except for his mom) refuse to acknowledge his existence now and his grandmother has sworn she’ll shoot him if he ever sets foot in her house (but don’t worry, the old bat is prone to exageration). Holidays are always weird because he is expressly unwelcome at family functions on his mom’s side. Eg/ he was banned from his cousin’s wedding.
That’s just for deciding he wouldn’t go to church anymore. If he married a Jewish girl or was gay, granny might try to get a gun after all.
This is a huge problem for so many gay people. Fortunately it’s never been a problem for me or my partner since we’re both atheists (Our families are very Jewish and very Muslim, but both families, in time, have come around to accepting us).
I have so much respect for people from traditional religious backgrounds who try to reconcile the two. To me, it would be a simple choice to be with my partner, but for others it’s truly a heart-wrenching choice, and they are fighting against really huge odds.
Along the lines of what panache45 just wrote my (gay) brother went through this with my family.
He loves his family and while he was not wholly ostracized family events and such were distinctly uncomfortable for him and especially his partner.
When my brother came out to me (I am the youngest and so was last to know officially although you do not live with someone that long and not know them so I had guessed) he was terrified. We have a close relationship and when he had told my sister some years earlier she broke down crying and ran from him and would not talk to him for a long time. As such it scared him to death when he felt he had to tell me (I was fine and had no problems with it).
Fast forward a few years and he finally sent a letter to my family (mainly mom & dad). In it he expressed his love for his family and that he did not want to lose anyone. That said he had to live his life as he saw fit and not at the dictates of anyone else. If the rest of the family could not deal with that then that would be that.
That was not something he did lightly by any means. He simply refused to subsume his life to what others thought it should be and simply demanded the basic respect we all should get.
In his case it worked. My parents were not prepared to lose a son over this and I’ll give them credit for growing a bit and coming around (although it was quite the effort getting there).
Bottom line is you need to live your life as you see fit. I have little patience for someone who would drop someone they love because mom & dad & friends are jerks. Your parents should remain your parents. Your real friends will not abandon you. Those who would I think you are better off without.
If the person in question believes in a religion, and if the religion includes the offer of infinite reward and the punishment of infinite suffering by way of magic, then how could the person give any consideration at all to the rewards and punishments of life itself?
In the case of the Catholic church, it is no good trying to argue the distinction between what God will do with one’s case and what the Church is saying. The Catholic church itself has some control over whether a person is saved or damned upon dying; it isn’t just God that decides.
brain⋅wash⋅ing
/ˈbreɪnˌwɒʃɪŋ, -ˌwɔʃɪŋ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [breyn-wosh-ing, -waw-shing] Show IPA
Use brainwashing in a Sentence
–noun
a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs, originated in totalitarian countries, esp. through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques.
any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, esp. one based on repetition or confusion: brainwashing by TV commercials.
That’s what I would say. As easily as the OP would walk away from the religion, the judgment could be made just as easily that God is more important than the relationship.
Exactly; believers are raised from birth to put their religion above else. To have no principles more important than maintaining and spreading the Faith. A Good Christian ( or Jew, or Muslim, or Hindu . . . ) will sacrifice his or her marriage, friends, family, country, or life to the religion they have been raised to be a tool of. Yes, not everyone does so; but that’s because they are a failed believer and thus a better human being.
So, of COURSE people will sacrifice their romantic relationship because their church disapproves. The church is not there for them; they are there for the church. They are it’s tools, it’s food, it’s sheep ( and even called that ! ). Their happiness, their lives are expendable; that’s the point.
I was raised in Hinduism. No, I was steeped in it. I was only allowed to have Hindu friends and all of my parents’ friends were Hindu. That’s not to say I didn’t have outside friends, just that my parents highly discouraged it. I had to fight to be allowed to have white friends stay overnight, that sort of thing.
Everyone we knew was Indian. We went to Indian parties, as a group - I wasn’t allowed to go to parties on my own. I went to Girl Scout Camp - when I was prepubescent. Once I was a teenager, it was Hindu camp all the time. I spoke the language, I danced to Hindi songs and watched Hindi movies and went to Hindi concerts with my Hindu friends.
Then came college, and I’m sure to this day my parents wished there was a Hindu college, too. I decided I didn’t want that to be my whole life. So I turned my back on it. Plus somewhere along the way I learned I was atheist…so there was that, too. And I didn’t want to have kids. Another reason not to follow the status quo.
I didn’t just give up my temple, as I said, I gave up the whole kit and caboodle. I miss those days of belonging. I am on my own now - completely. I don’t have emotional support from my family. I can’t because it always comes down to my choice to leave the temple - and we don’t even have excommunication! My family will forever be uncomfortable around me.
I don’t really want to join a “new” temple. I want the old peace and belonging back. But to get that I would have to sacrifice part of my identity.
Oh, no - I can completely understand why someone would sacrifice love. Even Indians know - you date Tom for five years but you marry Raju because he’s your class level and he’s Punjabi and your parents know his parents and he follows the same subdivision of Hinduism that your parents do…because it locks the family unit into place.
Because love doesn’t conquer all despite what many romantics like to think. A church isn’t just a building people go to on Sunday it’s a place where an individual has ties to other people, i.e. a community. Rejecting a community you were raised in just isn’t that easy for most people.
Odesio
Oh, I agree whole-heartedly. I’m just pointing out that some people don’t have enough of an independent existence to have the stones to take that step. And hats off to the people who have the stones to leave an environment that oppresses them when they have nothing to go to!
I think I mentioned on the boards already, there’s a girl I had to escort to and from school because she left home and became an emancipated minor to escape an abusive nutjob of a father (her attempted murder by said nutjob is why she needed an escort to and from school). Her older sister never left home. And I mean never, as far as anyone knows. She had only socialized minimally and had zero-nothing-nada as far as any kind of support network outside her family and their church.
My friend similarly had nothing, no resources etc., except a mighty powerful will and a great support network made up of friends and peers at school and in sports leagues that she had cultivated by getting really involved in all sorts of extra-curricular activities. So running away from home and going on the Student Welfare program was a viable option to her because she got at least a modicum of positive feedback and general support from her friends and peers. Which is good, because she has been 100% estranged from her entire family for the past 17 years. (Her family is not allowed to know what country she lives in.)
Some people have lives/family that are so fundamentally intertwined with their church, it is extremely hard to just up and leave it, because it’s all they have. Will they be better off being true to themselves? Probably. Will everyone be brave enough to take that step? Doubtful.
