Well, because semen, if it is “spill-over”, dies quite quickly, and if she “push[ed] it into herself with her fingers”, liekly it wouldn’t make it p to the uterus.
Do they really test what’s in the UTERUS?
I think I’m getting confused.
It wouldn’t surprise me at all. Women raped while drunk or somehow incapacitated for example. If, however, you only count as rape the incidents in which there is a subsequent trauma for the woman involved, then yes, the figure is much lower. God knows how many millions of women were raped after passing out from drinking too much alcohol…I remember that time when a guy I knew told me how he and 4 of his friends…nevermind. it makes me sick…
as much as some of you would like to believe that there are hundreds of wrongly accused rapists in jail, it’s simply not true.
there are far more cases of women who DO report, but the evidence isn’t enough to proceed to trial, even if the police are pretty sure the guy did it.
there are cases where the rapist isn’t identified.
there are cases where he is, but after the statute of limitiations has run out.
there are cases where the woman makes an unsympathetic witness (history of mental illness, abortions, sex worker etc) and so, although she is believed, a conviction is unlikely.
there are cases where the victim reports, but simply cannot face testifying in court and withdraws the charges.
there are far more women who never report the assault, knowing that there isn’t enough evidence, or women who are too scared to report.
women who cry rape are despicable, but the vast majority of them will be found out before it ever gets to trial.
more despicable is a woman who reports her rape to the police, but because of a lack of evidence, or an alibi from his wife, or some other such thing, a guilty man walks free.
'Spill-over semen"???! Is that like when you’re filling up the car with gas and put too much in? Are most resting, sleeping penises just oozing with semen and easily milked without the owner’s knowledge?
And about that “semen in the uteris (sic)” idea: in intercourse, the semen is normally deposited into the vagina, not the uterus. Then the sperm have to swim. Most of the time, no semen even makes it to the actual uterus because the passage is blocked because it’s not the right time in the woman’s cycle.
And if it weren’t potentially dangerous (vagal reflex), I would challenge you to try to “strangle yourself” to make bruises. It’s not so easy.
You’re right that “things aren’t always as they seem,” but this particular scenario is about the most unlikely that I can imagine. Possible? Yes. But has it ever actually happened? Maybe once or twice, but not often enough that it warrants trotting out as a potential defense, IMHO.
Just a reminder that this board is about fighting ignorance, not propagating it.
Isn’t it strange how this issue brings out the hysteria in a person?
This thread has offered plenty of evidence that this statistic is completely unsupported by the facts. Those attempting to support the statistic can offer nothing but anecdote. Is this board about fighting ignorance or about supporting popular politically motivated propaganda? Irrationality is the friend of ignorance. For those of you claiming there are a significant number of rape victims out there undetected by the police and the authorities or by any scientific method of detection, is this a verifiable fact or do you take it as an article of faith? Can we have some logic in this thread? For those of you holding to this notion, it is time to put up or shut up. No more heart-rending tales of horror, please, they don’t serve to prove anything one way or the other. No more anecdote, no more emotion, no more speculation.
GQ is about questions with a factual answer. “Will a quarter of all women be raped?” No, there is no reason to believe that is the case.
irishgirl, your statements are typical. You offer no evidence or facts to support your case, but your post is aimed right at the heart strings. If you’re right why do you have to rely on emotion to try and “prove” your case?
Your implication that the number of wrongly convicted rapists is insignificant is factually incorrect, as previously proven, even if there is such a thing as an insignificant number of the wrongly convicted.
The rest of your post is based on the assumption that rape reports only take place when there is a rape and that there is a huge number of rape victims out there who are undetectable, which would be very convenient for those unable to prove their case.
You sound like you’re arguing for the existence of nessie, a few eye witness accounts, a bit of evidence that’s been disproven but even in the lack of any proof an firm belief that you’re right, no matter how unable to prove it you are and no matter how against you the evidence is.
I don’t really see what it’s got to do with this thread, but you’re right that there is a low conviction rate for rape, 7% according to the UK Home Office (IIRC). Funnily enough, it plummeted when the Home Office redefined rape, while the number of convictions stayed about the same. No crime has a conviction rate of 100%, nor should it have unless only the guilty are brought to trial. The government is trying to raise the conviction rate by lowering standards of evidence and various other unjust measures, this just means innocent people will be convicted with their guilt being proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The obvious conclusion is that the conviction rate is low because there are a lot of accusations against innocent people. That is, or was, the point of the court, not to get a conviction, but to convict only the guilty.
Yes, I’m sure there are rape victims out there who don’t report it for one reason or another to the authorities but the idea of a huge number or victims who not only don’t report it to the authorities but are undetectable to any science and whose very existence is utterly unprovable is implausable, to put it mildly.
Smoke and mirrors. The flat earthers are more convincing. This is an emotional issue, especially in light of our society’s Victorian view of sex in general and specifically female sexuality. You should try to think with your head, try not to be so reactionary. Whether you’ve never met a rape victim (knowingly) or whether every woman you know has been gang raped doesn’t matter to the statistics and facts. None of you know enough people or enough about all of them for your knowledge to have any relevance.
Your statement that a woman trying to get an innocent man thrown in jail, with a greater than zero success rate and even when he escapes jail he still carries the stigma while her name is secret and she is blameless, isn’t as bad as an innocent man being thrown in jail shows how irrational you are on this issue. Sorry to single you out, but your post is an obvious example of the way most people seem to be “thinking” in this thread.
irishgirl, you say you were raped and it was impossible for you to go to the police. Why was it impossible? You said a policeman was right there ready to take a statement. There’s nothing more the police could do to help you if they tried to take your version of events. It was bound to be a difficult situation, if victims refuse to report rapes the police can’t do anything about them. You could have just gone to the police station later to “bring it up again”, as you put it.
Lastly, rape fantasies, which have come up in this thread, are fantasies. Lots of people have fantasies they wouldn’t want to come true, it has no bearing on the real world.
Terrific book, although American Women might not agree.
blue john.
don’t. just don’t.
if you can get the average 17 year old woman to tell a policeMAN intimate details of her life while she’s in a curtained cubicle, without clothes on, with people walking past to overhear, i’d be really surprised.
my counsellour and i have gone over and over this, and basically, the way things were i COULDN’T have talked to that man.
just realise how utterly insensitive you’re being.
do you know how much i blamed myself already?
do you know how ashamed i was? do you know how a second assault brought the full horror of the first back again?
no.
you don’t.
and i was back at the police station again, and you know what, i got the very distinct impression that nobody gave a damn.
i’m not returning to this thread, because it’s really, REALLY traumatic for me.
so i’m sorry if you think i’m to blame for not doing something, that’s fine, because having spent 2 years working through it all, i’m over that.
and quite frankly, your opinion doesn’t hold much weight with me.
This is more of a debate now than a general question, so I’ll move this thread to GD.
bibliophage
moderator GQ
This is a very disturbing thread 
I cannot speak for any of the other posters, but like many of the guys here, I really do not want to accept these numbers, although I am afraid they might be true.
There are a couple of reasons for this.
It is just plain terrible that it could happen so much. And get so little justice. That these guys must be still going around with no one the wiser. NOT a nice thought.
So many rapes implies many rapists. That maybe we KNOW a rapist, and we can’t tell. That we are dealing with such - - and we can’t tell. That is an awful thought.
And there is a very real feeling of dereliction of duty. That women we know had to go through this - and we didn’t help - couldn’t help - that they wouldn’t even TELL us, because they think we would be no use, or would accuse them of lying, or something - that feels TERRIBLE.
(BTW, I know this is sexist, and intellectually I don’t agree with vigilante justice. However, my gut has certain other ideas, involving broken arms.)
Frankly, if someone I trust -implicitly- and know is sane and truthful tells me they have been raped but cannot prove it, so there is going to be no official justice - well I will hunt the rapist down and explain to him just what he did wrong, in great detail.
I am sorry I am rambling, and believe me I am not trying to sound macho or anything - but I hope you understand why some of us, at least, are automatically dismissive of these statistics. Not because we think women are lying whores - because we feel we are failing to do what we should (whether this feeling is right or not.)
Wow, I’m both a rapist and a rape victim! I never knew!
I’d be willing to bet that “will they actually believe me? Will they think I fabricated this?” is partially behind the reason why most women find it impossible. More on this later in this post…
Blue John, I suggest you set your hands on a copy of “Women, Violence and Social Control” (Jalna Hamner & Mary Maynard, Ed. Humanities Press / British Sociological Association, 1987), and read the chapter by Liz Kelly called “The Continuum of Sexual Violence”. She, among others, has led quite a few studies on the topic of rape, and rape incident reports. I don’t believe the statistics lie - however, 1 out of 4 may be a bit of a flexible statistic, depending on location and geography, as well as age.
My own studies in the “legalisation” of woman abuse, to re-use a term coined by sociologist Lorraine Radford, I have come to believe that there are few actual cases of malingering - women who persecute innocent men and put them behind bars.
The legal system is such that it takes an incredible amount of proof just to get these men locked away - unfortunately, just a semen sample and proof of physical harm is not enough. Yes, defence lawyers will actually argue (I have a pile of these court documents in a box, should you be interested in the topic) that these women gave their consent - or at least that their consent was unclear at best… even in cases where the violence is so very obvious it’s clear to everyone else they’re grasping for straws.
Truth is, most rapists are known to the victim, and many go free without ever facing trial.
I’m not saying that false accusations don’t exist - but in the case of rape, they are few and far between, and usually linked to some form of factitious disorder like Munchausen’s Syndrome (obviously not by proxy, though it occasionally also manifests itself that way.) In fact, many cases against rapists are dropped because of the impact on the victim’s health and sanity.
Now, numbers dealing with people who do NOT report cases of sexual violence are based in actual study - again, set your hands on that book (among others). Truth is, sexual violence does go seriously unreported. Various studies have shown that victims fear the reaction of the officers in charge of taking down their statements - they’re ashamed, they’re afraid, and they’re certainly afraid people won’t believe them.
This thread has shown that there are still people out there who wouldn’t believe them, or who may treat their testimony as “potentially false” - while it’s true that it could be, chances are that it’s not. It takes an incredible amount of courage to report these things, and truth is, many women who end up in hospitals because of rape REFUSE to bring the perpetrator to justice - why? Because they very often KNOW him. They’re afraid - of what others will think, or what he will do, of what will happen WHILE he awaits trial.
The stigma isn’t around sex, my friend. It’s around rape victims. They’re treated as either “fragile little flowers who didn’t know any better”, or “potential lying vixens”.
I’m not saying I have all the answers, I really wish I did…
Elly
This is a list of women and men who’ve told me themselves or about whom I’ve been told by people I believe. Unless I note otherwise, I believe these happened. Also unless I note otherwise, these all went unreported.[list=1]
[li]One woman who was violently raped by her boyfriend in the eighth grade.[/li][li]One woman who was gangraped in high school.[/li][li]One woman who was molested by her uncle for several years as a pre-teen. Later in life, she and several cousins went to the police; she testified at trial, and he’s now in jail.[/li][li]One man who was molested by an uncle for several years.[/li][li]One woman who was sexually assaulted on the street by a stranger who pushed her down and fondled her for a bit.[/li][li]One woman who said she was raped by a mutual friend; of the circle who know of this accusation, none believe her.[/li][/list=1]1 in 4 does seem high, but not implausible to me since knowing about these. I’m certain there’s others I don’t know about in my circle of friends and acquaintances.
Could a mod please remove my post on the first page? I shouldn’t have posted any identifying material, and realized it too late.
It looks like the answer is: It depends what you consider rape.
BlueJohn, if you had ever BEEN raped, or had someone close to you–say, a daughter–go through something like this, perhaps you’d have a better understanding about where the “hysteria” comes from.
Thank your lucky stars that you don’t have the experience that Irishgirl does, and accept that you have never walked in her shoes and that you have absolutely NO room for judgement here.
Perhaps you don’t know them well enough for them to have shared such information? Personally, very nearly all the women I know as close friends who are in their early twenties have been the victim of a completed rape. Okay, I don’t have that many close friends–but the four women that live in my house (including myself) have all been raped. Of the seven female friends I have, five of them have been rape victims.
Peace,
~mixie
It’s ignorant to think that this couldn’t happen if someone had the right motives. Sperm would probably live pretty well in someone’s mouth or closed hand for a couple seconds I would presume…
It’s not easy for a sane person to strangle themselves and give themselves bruises, but for an insane (or whatever you want to call it) person, who could possibly be on a date drug to make the situation more believeable, with a desperate motive?
And just FYI, my argument was against sperm being inside the uteris, as if that coupled with bruises was some kind of proof of rape for juries. I only cited one imaginative reason. Another could be that the girl consented to her boyfriend and then afterwards, to spite her cheating boyfriend who didn’t know she knew he cheated, called rape on him after beating herself… and then popped the “day after” pill to make sure she didn’t get pregnant.
Sorry, I am open-minded, not ignorant. If I can think this stuff up being a sane person, there is no telling what kinds of sick tricks an insane, revengeful chick could try to pull.
Thanks for posting again and proving my point, Fuel. :rolleyes:
Let’s see, I’m getting a pretty clear picture of who you are and what you’re all about now. Try this on for size: You’re about 14 or 15 years old, busy dealing with puberty but pretty insecure about it; you’re a little bit attracted to some of the girls in your class, but you’re scared of them, can’t talk to them without tripping on your tongue, and you haven’t yet summoned up the courage to ask a girl out on a real date. You hear some of your friends brag in the locker room about their dates, and you wish you had some experience to share, too. Mostly, though, girls are a puzzle to you and seem more like a different species rather than merely a different gender. You like your mom best. And your PC.
How’s that? Pretty close, I’ll bet.
Here’s a hint: girls will start liking you, and you’ll be more comfortable with them, if you start thinking of and treating them as people, rather than as “insane, revengeful chick[s]”.
Well, in some cases it certainly does seem to matter just how far you expand the definition of rape.
I personally have known of at least three women who claimed they were raped purely because they regretted having a one night stand with a guy who didn’t call, and that reasoning came from them.
They figured if the guy promised he’d call and didn’t, that meant they were raped, and there they are skewing the statistics and making it harder to be believed when it did really happen.
I tend to agree. It is just anecdotal, but I can think of seven women offhand who have told me that they had been raped, and several more who have been sexually assaulted. One of the seven lied to me about several things in our relationship, so she might have a credibility problem, but I’ve got no reason to think she lied about that. Another of the seven was raped by a group of five men. Another was raped and killed by her attacker (obviously she didn’t tell me about it, but I knew her, and it was a well-reported case here in Korea); as far as I know, this is the only case of the seven that resulted in punishment for the rapist. No doubt I know other women who have been raped but haven’t told me about it.
I’m sure some men are falsely accused, and that is a very bad thing, since rape is such a very bad crime. Still, I don’t think it’s as common a problem as the one of rape victims who are either not believed or are made to feel responsible for the rape.
A man has a responsibility to be absolutely sure, even if everyone is intoxicated, that the woman wants to proceed before proceeding. This may result in missing a chance or two to get laid, but I doubt that it would result in permanent psychological damage.
Wow. You are really something else. :eek: This has got to be the craziest knee-jerk-reaction post I have seen here on the boards. Listen, you need to learn a concept here: Giving your fellow Doper the benefit of the doubt. You and everyone else on this board knows that the average 14-15 year old youngster could not coordinate a post such as mine up there. I know better than to start yapping with someone like you. Go find someone else to bug. Bye bye.