Will these hearings "demonize" Muslims in America?

[Valteron]

May I give you a real example of the kind of thing that genuinely worries me about some Muslims in the west?

This is a true story which seems quite germane to the present discussion.

In my home city in Canada, the Imam of a local mosque appeared (along with an RC priest and a protestant minister) to answer questions from a group of “humanists” (i.e. atheists).

Now, the Imam did not even have a beard, if I recall, and dressed in a grey business suit. Everything he said was friendly and polite and spoken in a calm, clear manner. Your first impression was that he must be a very moderate man.

But over the course of the Q&As, the question of Salman Rushdie came up. People were basically asking, “Where does Islam get off killing people in other countries who write books you deem offensive?”

Now, here is the point that frightened me. He kept making calming motions with his hand, speaking in a low voice, and emphasizing that fatwahs like the one against Rushdie are not put out on a whim but only after long and serious consideration by many learned scholars.

But no matter how often he described the process, I noticed that **NOT ONCE **did he condemn this theocratic “murder contract”.

So I decided to pin him down. I asked him what he would do if he knew that Rusdie would be in our city in Canada tomorrow and that a specific Muslim intended to kill him in execution of the fatwah.

Now quite frankly, there is only one correct and acceptable answer that a resident or citizen of Canada (or the US or any other democracy) can give to that question. It is that they would report the would-be murderer to the police. This is the law of Canada and no other answer is possible, unless you are a terrorist or support terrorism.

Instead, the “moderatre” Imam kept refusing to answer on the grounds that it was a “hypothetical” question, and kept coming back to his explanation that death fatwahs are not issued lightly. To my knowledge, that “moderate” Imam is still in that Mosque.

I think that is when I started to understand that a great deal of Islam is simply incompatible with our western democracy.

[Argent_Towers]

@Skip

I assume you aren’t considering McVeigh as a Christian “homegrown terrorist”?

I want everybody to repeat the following sentence, out loud.

“Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian.”

Do it again.

“Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian.”

Do it 10 more times. Is that what it’s going to take to get people to understand that Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian and never acted in the name of Christianity? He never acted in the name of Christianity. He never thought of himself or presented himself as a representative of Christianity.

Every time there is ever a discussion of Islamic terrorism, someone comes in blabbering about Timothy McVeigh and “homegrown Christian terrorism.”

Stop it. STOP IT. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

He was totally a Christian.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

No we’re talking about homegrown Americans, not transplants. The goal of these hearings is to harrass Americans who are Muslims.

Excuse me?

People like myself are “transplants” not real Americans?

Show me where in the OP there’s a distinction between Muslim immigrants and Muslims born in the US.

Besides, virtually all, if not all the people mentioned became radicalized within the US.

[Marley23]

@Valteron

Prologue:

Actual moderator instructions to Valteron:

@tomndebb

Valteron has marched firmly into the realm of one trick pony in regards to Islam in Great Debates. […] I am also going to note that if this one-trick-pony approach to Great Debates continues, we will probably consider letting Valteron find some other message board in which to play his games.

It’s been a few weeks since Valteron started any threads in GD and his last was not about Islam.

[quote=“Valteron, post:61, topic:573688”]

May I give you a real example of the kind of thing that genuinely worries me about some Muslims in the west?
… but this is exactly the kind of Muslim-bashing that Valteron has been instructed to stop. If you post any more of this, Valteron, the thread will be locked and you’ll be warned for ignoring staff instructions. I’d close this right now but I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt to the posters who want to treat this as a serious discussion.

[Argent_Towers]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

He was totally a Christian.

Why do you say that? The man professed atheism or at least agnosticism. He claimed he had “lost touch” with the Catholic religion that he was raised in - I guess some people might consider a Catholic who abandons his views still a Catholic, but I don’t. He is quoted as saying “science is my religion,” which I don’t think any self-believed Christian would do. The remarks on his religion that I have read reflect only a vague belief in intelligent design, but certainly not any one explicit religion.

We may have differing views on what constitutes a Christian. To me, it’s someone who believes that the salvation of his soul is in Jesus Christ alone. Without that, one might still be religious in a general sense (which I still don’t think McVeigh was) but not a Christian.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Ibn_Warraq

Excuse me?

People like myself are “transplants” not real Americans?

I thought you lived in Canada.

Show me where in the OP there’s a distinction between Muslim immigrants and Muslims born in the US.

The distinction is between being “homegrown,” and not being “homegrown.” “Homegrown” means you grew up here.

[tomndebb]

@Valteron

Prologue: Before I begin this post, I should mention that in choosing to bring up this subject, I may well be banned from SDMB by Tomndebb, since in a previous thread of mine a few weeks ago he called me a “one-trick pony” (apparently the rules about personal attacks outside the Pit do not apply to Tom). He implied that I would be asked to seek another venue to air my opinions.

“One trick pony” is the term used by this board to identify a particular behavior. As such, when a Moderator uses it in regards to a poster’s behavior, it is simply to point out that such behavior is frowned upon on this board. It is no more personal insult than if a Mod were to describe you as a troll or a sock-puppet. The Mod’s claims could be correct or in error, but they are not personal insults.

No Mod can ban a user without a consensus of support from several other Mods and at least one Administrator, so the only way that you could be banned would be to persuade multiple members of the staff by your behavior that you are unsuited to this board. (Of course, engaging in one-trick-pony behavior in a disruptive manner might well persuade several such staff members to that position, but it would hardly be a matter of me choosing to ban you.)

In the case of this particular thread, you employed less infglammatory rhetoric than is your wont, so it appears to be a legitimate debate rather than your standard misplaced BBQ Pit rant and I do not intened to close this thread.

NOTE: If you have any further off-topic comments about board administration, take them to ATMB and do not post them in this thread.
[ /Moderating]

[Valteron]

@spark240

Of course not. But at least they won’t be handed ammunition.

So the argument that a Congressman holds a very civilized series of hearings on the dangers of radicalization and calls on peace-loving Muslims to cooperate with him is a major weapon in their arsenal of arguments against America? For that matter is the average Muslim in Africa and Asia even likely to be aware that such hearings were ever held?

[Skip]

@Argent_Towers

We may have differing views on what constitutes a Christian. To me, it’s someone who believes that the salvation of his soul is in Jesus Christ alone. Without that, one might still be religious in a general sense (which I still don’t think McVeigh was) but not a Christian.

Do you consider the anti-abortion activists who have murdered at least 8 people and attempted to murder another 17 since 1977 Christians? The majority of people who carried out these attacks (if not all of them) I’m pretty sure would consider themselves such.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Argent_Towers

Why do you say that? The man professed atheism or at least agnosticism. He claimed he had “lost touch” with the Catholic religion that he was raised in - I guess some people might consider a Catholic who abandons his views still a Catholic, but I don’t. He is quoted as saying “science is my religion,” which I don’t think any self-believed Christian would do. The remarks on his religion that I have read reflect only a vague belief in intelligent design, but certainly not any one explicit religion.

We may have differing views on what constitutes a Christian. To me, it’s someone who believes that the salvation of his soul is in Jesus Christ alone. Without that, one might still be religious in a general sense (which I still don’t think McVeigh was) but not a Christian.

McVeigh didn’t start saying he was an agnostic until 2001 (6 years after the bombing). As late as a year after the bombing he was saying in interviews that “I still have core beliefs,” and that he still believed in God, even though he also said he had “lost touch with Catholicism.”

[magellan01]

@Ibn_Warraq

Is your computer somehow preventing you from reading Captain Amazings’ post?

He lists them in it.

To be fair, he has reality on “ignore”.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Valteron

So the argument that a Congressman holds a very civilized series of hearings on the dangers of radicalization and calls on peace-loving Muslims to cooperate with him is a major weapon in their arsenal of arguments against America? For that matter is the average Muslim in Africa and Asia even likely to be aware that such hearings were ever held?

He needs to have a hearing on Christian, anti-abortion terrorists first. They are a far greater threat. He needs to stary investigating and interrogating all anti-abortion groups, find out their associations., discover where theiy’re getting their money from, investigate their backgrounds, etc. First things first. Investigate the more immediate threats.

[Skip]

@Valteron

So the argument that a Congressman holds a very civilized series of hearings on the dangers of radicalization and calls on peace-loving Muslims to cooperate with him is a major weapon in their arsenal of arguments against America?

Why hold hearings singling out Muslims when the vast number of acts of homegrown terrorism on US soil are carried out by non-Muslims?

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Skip

Do you consider the anti-abortion activists who have murdered at least 8 people and attempted to murder another 17 since 1977 Christians? The majority of people who carried out these attacks (if not all of them) I’m pretty sure would consider themselves such.

I can’t speak for him, but I certainly do.

Is anyone claiming they aren’t?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

If nothing else, McVeigh was a conservative. He was also white, male, a registered Republican and a member of the NRA. All of those groups should be investigated.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@magellan01

To be fair, he has reality on “ignore”.

I have to admit laughing when said he thought I was Canadian.

There’s also his continued absurd insistence that we not consider terrorist attacks by American citizens if those citizens weren’t born in the US.

[magellan01]

@Argent_Towers

…

Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian and never acted in the name of Christianity? He never acted in the name of Christianity. He never thought of himself or presented himself as a representative of Christianity.

Every time there is ever a discussion of Islamic terrorism, someone comes in blabbering about Timothy McVeigh and “homegrown Christian terrorism.”

Stop it. STOP IT. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

This is so right. He did NOT act in the name of Christianity. That’s a crucial difference to Muslim terrorists who act in the name of I S _ _ M—Can anyone guess?

Hey maybe this will help:

Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian and never acted in the name of Christianity? He never acted in the name of Christianity. He never thought of himself or presented himself as a representative of Christianity.

Every time there is ever a discussion of Islamic terrorism, someone comes in blabbering about Timothy McVeigh and “homegrown Christian terrorism.”

Stop it. STOP IT. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Ibn_Warraq

I have to admit laughing when said he thought I was Canadian.

You said you live in Canada, did you not? You are aware that Canada is not part of the US?

[magellan01]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

If nothing else, McVeigh was a conservative. He was also white, male, a registered Republican and a member of the NRA. All of those groups should be investigated.

He also had two eyes. Let’s focus the investigation on people with two eyes!