Will this election also be decided by the perverse American fetish for GUNS?

[kirkrapine]

@Annoyed

Guns are easy to understand. It has nothing to do with race, religion, Nazis or White Supremacy. Nothing about hating others or being paranoid. It’s about above all else having the power and the right to defend yourself and your family with the means you choose and having power over the government.

WTF?! No small-arms arsenal is going to keep you alive if the government seriously wants to kill you! (Cliven Bundy’s standoff only worked because the government didn’t want to.)

[kirkrapine]

No, the next election is not going to be decided by gun-rights single-issue-voters. There is too much else in play.

[Oredigger77]

@enipla

Plan on buying the right compressor specifically for PCP. The one to put air in tires will not work. The special hand pump is fine if you really want some exercise.

I’ve got about $1000 invested in my PCP, but it costs maybe 2 cents to shoot. If you get one, you will learn a lot about it’s ammo/pellets. That’s the secret.

Once I get time and money I think I’ll be starting a thread to get some advice.

[Ludovic]

@RTFirefly

You’ve used it up, you’ve made the term meaningless. Now that someone’s proposed actual, bona fide gun-grabbing, what’cha gonna call it now, huh? ‘Tyranny’? Nope, already pounded that one into the ground.

@Try2B_Comprehensive

I think RTFirefly got it right in post 10.

I think so too but because of the “crying wolf”. While I think that if Beto himself were the nominee, he would lose votes from people otherwise on the fence and/or have a lot of angry turnout against him from otherwise apathetic people.

But if someone else is nominated, gun nuts already think the Democrats are gun grabbers, so nominating a run-of-the-mill advocate for moderate gun control won’t change anyone’s mind.

[enipla]

@Oredigger77

Once I get time and money I think I’ll be starting a thread to get some advice.

Do. But there are probably a zillion other forums about them. Also check out ytube. Perhaps we will all learn something. The pre charged pneumatic is pretty cool. I get about 30 good shots a charge. Quieter than a clap of your hand. Cool stuff, but the pellet is so light that a windy day will not work for target shooting. It can drive tacks on a calm day.

To clean it, I shoot an oiled, felt ‘pellet’ through it. Easy peasy.

I see from your ‘handle’ that you are in the front range I assume that from ‘Back at 5280’. Rifle works fine at over twice that altitude. Gonna end the hi-jack. You are welcome to PM me. I’m still new at this, but it’s fun.

[Muffin]

@Oredigger77

I’ve got one on my list for shooting at the house.

Unoccupied, I trust.

[Annoyed]

@Muffin

It went well in Australia. It is going well in New Zealand. It will not go well in the USA because too many gun nuts would start killing innocent people who are law abiding. In other words, gun nuts being terrorists.

Yep, the people having their constitutionally protected property stolen from them by force are the terrorists.

[Annoyed]

@SamuelA

You’re just saying that. Do you have a cite?

Because the ATF does *exactly *this for things like short barreled rifles and submachine guns. Both of which were legal everywhere at one point in time.

And yes, it’s forced confiscation, however, not without compensation.

So forced confiscation is ok as long as they throw our own fucking tax dollars back at us when it’s over?

[Annoyed]

@Muffin

The USA is, according to the Economist’s Special Investigations Unit, no longer a full democracy, but the gun nuts have not protected free-dum and instead voted in Trump, changing a failing democracy into a hate-filled democrazy.

It is a great pity that that the USA prefers to destroy itself, with the gun nuts leading the charge, [del]one bloody corpse at a time[/del] as many corpses mowed down at a time as possible.

The USA has never been a full democracy. It wasn’t built that way and was never planned that way.

[kirkrapine]

@Annoyed

So forced confiscation is ok as long as they throw our own fucking tax dollars back at us when it’s over?

That has always been how eminent domain works.

[Annoyed]

@kirkrapine

That has always been how eminent domain works.

Get back to me when that has a direct correlation with the second amendment.

[echoreply]

I wish there was a constitutional amendment to protect my hobby. That’s all I can think of when I hear gun fetishists going on and on about the second amendment. Instead of repealing the second amendment, we should work towards getting an amendment which prevents the government from impinging on our right to street race. I find cars much more fun than guns. “No officer, you can’t give me a ticket. I was racing, not speeding.”

[MrDibble]

@HMS_Irruncible

Gun nuts say their opponents are afraid of their rifles only because they’re scary and black

Which is ironic given the correlation cited before between being a gun nut and…being afraid of scary blacks.

[sps49sd]

@septimus

Why are guns so wonderful? So we can protect our families? Shoot at targets or clipped-wing quail when we need sexual release and the wife is tired of giving us blow jobs? Be ready to fight the redcoats, terrorists, Muslims, Jews, Irish, Sikhs, Kenyans and centaurs who would otherwise inundate our homeland? Stand our ground in a movie theater when someone is munching their popcorn too loud? NO!! To listen to some, these goals are secondary. It’s the Constitution, dammit, the Constitution!

I thought of posting the following where it belonged — in the thread “Observations of the 3rd Democratic Debate” — but since it’s longish it might be considered a rant.

Trillions of dollars in new debt.  Income inequality as severe as its been in a century.  The first generations in American history who expect to be poorer than their parents, many already struggling with debt loads that will haunt them till old age.  A trade war likely to plunge the world into recession, a recession the world's central banks are no longer equipped to remedy.

 A healthcare system that is the laughingstock of the developed world. America's longest war, with hundreds of thousands of our soldiers suffering PTSD.  Dictators fomenting aggressions and oppressions throughout the world, often with the support of the U.S.  Allies like France and Germany now regard the present U.S. as a bigger threat than Putin's Russia.

Children caged at the border.  Foreign freshmen bound for Harvard sent back because their Facebook Friend badmouthed Trump.  The U.S. diplomatic corps, U.S. science centers like NASA or DoE, the FBI and intelligence services — all decimated by hateful and 'starve the beast' policies.  The urgent fight against climate change put on hold.  Polluters free to pollute once more.

Yet these issues all pale into insignificance in American politics.  Many swing voters emphasize just one issue, the crucial issue, the issue that separates America from the rest of humanity.  ***GUNS!!***

And why are *Guns* so wonderful?  I guess if an Article of the Constitution required that we walk backwards naked on Main Street every Tuesday, than that would be the quintessentially American value whose repeal would cause permanent damage.

Climate change?  Not lasting damage!  Children under-nourished or under-educated due to policies that promote poverty?  Not lasting damage!  America's military veterans have a suicide average much higher than the rest of population?  Not lasting damage!  Rising debts now out of control that will eventually trigger devaluations?  Not lasting damage! Firings and exasperated resignations that in less than three years have already decimated the institutional knowledge of U.S. intelligence, diplomatic, and science agencies?  Not lasting damage!

No, the thread in Elections turns to contemplation of what *would* be lasting:  Americans no longer [del][COLOR="Black"]compelled to walk backwards naked on Main Street every Tuesday[/del][/COLOR] entitled to the assault weapons used by mass murderers.

Czarcasm started a thread titled “The inherent problem with 2nd Amendment debates” which makes an important point I’ve tried to make, though it’s an elusive point for some. The Mod first unilaterally changed the thread title to obfuscate Czarcasm’s argument; then closed the thread altogether.

I apologize to Czarcasm and all Dopers for not supporting the thesis of that thread before it was closed. This thread is dedicated to Czarcasm’s thread.

Climate change? Every bit of extractable fossil fuel is giong to be burned. I would like to slow the rate down and make it last longer, but Trump is not making much of a difference worldwide. And if our healthcare system is a laughingstock, why do the world’s elite travel to the USA for serious care? You list serious issues, and they should be debated and discussed and solved. Our fundamental rights should not be attacked, however.

And why does everyone mischaracterize ‘Stand Your Ground’?

I read Czarcasm’s OP in that thread. My opinion is that he did not like reason and facts beibg used against his positions and beliefs.

@JKellyMap

It baffles me as well. It makes no sense at all, unless “guns” symbolize something deeper for many people — something (with variation among individuals) to do with fear and mistrust of perceived urban/cosmopolitan power — education, government, globalized links (with their stench of racial impurity)… (yet, economic structural power is somehow largely exempt)…

Firearms have been around for the entire history of our nation. Restrictions generally have become more stringent over time, without reducing violent crime, and some have noticed this. But you want to dismiss opposition as racism right off the bat, grouping them whether or not they are white or not, female or not, or left, right, or center.

@RTFirefly

Which is why the pro-gun types have fought for open carry in public places. Well, at least for the first time ever, a major politician (Beto) has called for actual gun-grabbing, as opposed to the things (like background checks or bans on future purchases of particular kinds of guns) that the gun nuts, including those on this very board, have called ‘gun-grabbing’ for many years now.

You’ve used it up, you’ve made the term meaningless. Now that someone’s proposed actual, bona fide gun-grabbing, what’cha gonna call it now, huh? ‘Tyranny’? Nope, already pounded that one into the ground. “Wolf, wolf, wolf!” Yeah, yeah, you cried that already, nobody’s listening anymore. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

No, it was not crying wolf. Beto showed that the warnings were for real.

@BobLibDem

…I feel disgust for gun nuts. The one issue that matters to them most, the one hill they want to die on, is to preserve their ability to possess the means to slaughter other humans. They’re pathetic pieces of shit and the blood of those killed in churches and high schools and concerts is on their hands. Fuck every single one of them in the ass with a red hot poker.

Our hands? My hands? No. The murderers are those toward whom you should direct you anger, with some for the media that sensationalizes their actions.

[sps49sd]

@RTFirefly

To the extent that guns are an issue, the advantage has shifted. For decades, there’s been a lot more people who were pro-regulation than people who were anti. But the intensity was all on the pro-gun side.

That’s not the case anymore - the majority wants these fucking massacres to stop, they want their kids to not have to do regular ‘active shooter’ drills in the schools just because we allow everyone to carry weapons of mass slaughter around with them, effectively allowing everyone to hold everyone else hostage all the time.

Well, FUCK THAT SHIT, is what people are saying. And last year, Democrats weren’t afraid to campaign in favor of gun regulation, and they won in places where Dems don’t usually win anyway.

And now Beto’s moved the Overton window a big step in the right direction by calling for not only an end to selling new assault weapons, but mandatory buybacks of those that are already out there as well. In another year or two, when it’s sunk in a bit, that’s gonna look like common sense to the vast majority of Americans.

Yes, guns are a winning issue - for the left. But I unfortunately have to admit that the right is still winning on this issue in the most fundamental sense: the massacres are still happening.

Nothing you advocate or propose would have changed any of the shootings, unless you think you can wish away every firearm.

@HMS_Irruncible

Gun nuts live in an alternate reality where it’s inevitable that either they will fight the government, or they will outlive a collapsed government.

Gun nuts understand that, in a standoff with government forces, they are going to die. They are OK with this. Mainly because it’s mostly posturing - it’s easy to act badass about something that’s never going to happen. But when contemplating the risk of death, the Christian death cult believes it will be rewarded in the afterlife for its faithfulness.

Gun nuts don’t care about the impact to society or other people because the point is the ability to harm other people, and Jesus is coming to reconquer the world with fire anyway when Revelations comes true.

Gun nuts say their opponents are afraid of their rifles only because they’re scary and black, and have no problem with wooden rifle of similar function. They lack the self awareness to reflect on why they have a toddler-like insistence on buying the flashy, menacing black rifle instead of the wooden-stock rifle of similar function.

These people are mentally ill and we need to stop equipping them with toys to furnish their rage fantasies.

Wood is pretty and harder to keep pretty. And cost more. Firearms are tools first.

And the gun nuts you describe- I don’t know any. I see posters (not here) who talk like that, but there are too many to take seriously. The NZ shooter and copycats are still a small percentage of that group.

@SamuelA

Ok, well what about semi-automatic rifles with deep magazines? What is it about being able to fire several shots a second until the magazine is empty is a Constitutional Right. One that is necessary for our freedom to be maintained?

We can argue all day about whether or not it’s a net good or a net bad, but it looks like to me if a majority of voters decide that this isn’t a necessary right, and the legislature passed laws making this type of weapon illegal without a special license, then that’s that. The gun-grabbing could commence.

There are so many out there and few records, so sure, some people would keep those rifles hidden away for generations. But most would be found, and no one would openly carry them anywhere or even take them out in public.

The citizenry’s firearms should not be out of place where militia operations would take place.

@BobLibDem

Oh fuck that shit. Who exactly do you intend to shoot? Who do you fantasize about blowing their brains out? People who don’t look like you? People who pray differently? You get this massive arsenal, surely you’re fantasizing about shooting somebody. You have a “right” to self defense with a weapon used by the military? No you fucking don’t. Do the world a favor and turn in your Dirty Harry fantasy toy collection before you hurt the grownups, or even worse, innocent children. Then grow the fuck up.

Don’t ascribe those fantasies to anyone because you have no clue what anyone is thinking.

We DO have the right to these infantry type weapons.

Saying I, or any poster here, or anyone else will shoot (innocent) grownups or children unless everyone is disarmed is bullshit.

@SamuelA

Quicksilver, why would the Constitution require amending to go from:

a. Virtually Everyone can have semiautomatic rifles and handguns

b. Virtually Everyone can have bolt-action rifles and revolvers

Some special people who pay large fees and pass special checks can have the weapons in (a).

Clearly, a bolt-action rifle is still a far better firearm than anything the framers of the Constitution had in mind. So I am not sure how a theoretical Federal law banning anything better, and authorizing the ATF to buy back the existing weapons and conduct raids to seize weapons not turned in, would be unconstitutional.

You want to discriminate even more against the less affluent?

And the militia used the exact same weapons in the field that they kept at home. Why should this be different now?

@Muffin

It went well in Australia. It is going well in New Zealand. It will not go well in the USA because too many gun nuts would start killing innocent people who are law abiding. In other words, gun nuts being terrorists.

Are you aware of how many firearms were not turned in in Australia? Or how many have been turned in after New Zealand’s recent laws? Hint: it’s not many.

@QuickSilver

I’ve had enough of these “debates”, to be honest. I’m just fed up with all the “need it for protection” bullshit.

But I’ll address the confiscation question, which is a bullshit distraction as well. If a law was passed banning certain types of guns, this would be my approach:

1. Contact all gun owners on record of (legally) purchasing restricted weapons
2. Offer buy-back or tax credits for guns returned within 90 days
3. Offer 25% bonus for guns returned within first 30 days
4. Begin tax penalties for guns not surrendered after the first year.
5. If guns was found as a result of a search for an unrelated cause/crime - additional penalties apply (fines and requirements for mandatory community service)
6. No raids for gun seizures specifically.
7. Raids only due to evidence as result of illegal activity or planned illegal activity.

You demonstrate that you don’t know much of what you are discussing.

1. There are no records of most legally purchased weapons.
   This would impede the rest of your approach.

And I will repeat- the need for protection is not bullshit. People have and do use firearms to protect themselves.

@kirkrapine

WTF?! No small-arms arsenal is going to keep you alive if the government seriously wants to kill you! (Cliven Bundy’s standoff only worked because the government didn’t want to.)

I think Bundy et al. should be arrested, prosecuted, and have the cattle that are grazing for free on public land seized and auctioned to pay his unpaid grazing fees.

But small arms in citizens’ hands may have, and may in the future, prevent unlawful government confrontations or actions. It is a check on the government that would need serious force to overcome. What would our government have that is worth initiating that kind of conflict? Hopefully, none.

[BobLibDem]

@sps49sd

Our hands? My hands? No. The murderers are those toward whom you should direct you anger, with some for the media that sensationalizes their actions.

Yes, YOUR hands. You’re one of millions of paranoid, ignorant fools who think you have a right to own weaponry whose only function is to kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible. Your pigheadedness costs people lives.

[septimus]

Hi sps49sd ! Thanks for showing up.

I was afraid that I’d caricatured your position:

@septimus

Why are guns so wonderful? … NO!! To listen to some, these goals are secondary. It’s the Constitution, dammit, the Constitution!…

Trillions of dollars in new debt. Income inequality as severe as its been in a century. The first generations in American history who expect to be poorer than their parents, many already struggling with debt loads that will haunt them till old age. A trade war likely to plunge the world into recession, a recession the world’s central banks are no longer equipped to remedy.
…
Children caged at the border. Foreign freshmen bound for Harvard sent back because their Facebook Friend badmouthed Trump. The U.S. diplomatic corps, U.S. science centers like NASA or DoE, the FBI and intelligence services — all decimated by hateful and ‘starve the beast’ policies. The urgent fight against climate change put on hold. Polluters free to pollute once more.

Yet these issues all pale into insignificance in American politics. Many swing voters emphasize just one issue, the crucial issue, the issue that separates America from the rest of humanity. GUNS!!

[SIZE=“3”]Climate change? Not lasting damage! Children under-nourished or under-educated due to policies that promote poverty? Not lasting damage! America’s military veterans have a suicide average much higher than the rest of population? Not lasting damage! Rising debts now out of control that will eventually trigger devaluations? Not lasting damage! Firings and exasperated resignations that in less than three years have already decimated the institutional knowledge of U.S. intelligence, diplomatic, and science agencies? Not lasting damage!

No, the thread in Elections turns to contemplation of what would be lasting: Americans no longer [del][COLOR=“Black”]compelled to walk backwards naked on Main Street every Tuesday[/del][/COLOR] entitled to the assault weapons used by mass murderers.[/SIZE]

… but it seems I got you spot on!

@septimus

A healthcare system that is the laughingstock of the developed world…

Hi there again, sps49sd ! Are you one of the many willfully obtuse right-wingnuts? Or just stupid?

No one doubts that America has excellent doctors, excellent hospitals and so on. Who said otherwise? Are you really so stupid that you thought this was under debate?

The reason America’s healthcare system is a laughingstock is the high cost — more than TWICE the cost in Germany which is 2nd-most expensive in G7 — and the fact that MANY MILLIONS of Americans are UNINSURED. This is discussed in other threads. Or just Google “Explain things to me like I’m an Idiot.”

In America, when someone collapses on the street they often scream “DON’T phone for an ambulance!!” They don’t want to pay $5000+ for an unnecessary ride.

Here in Thailand my relative, with NO insurance, recently had an epileptic fit and fell off his motorbike. An ambulance was summoned and took him to hospital. Guess how much my relative had to pay? Hint: It starts with ‘Z’ and rhymes with “Nero.”

I hope I didn’t insult you so much you go away, sps49sd. We’d love to hear from you! Very few of the stupid angry white males who vote for Trump have the literacy skills to post on message boards. So we’re sincerely curious to understand your perspective!

[QuickSilver]

@sps49sd

Firearms are tools first.

Tools for what purpose? How many people die as a consequence of guns being “defensive” tools vs “offensive” tools?

@sps49sd

The citizenry’s firearms should not be out of place where militia operations would take place.

Citizenry has no business playing pretend soldiers. Grow the fuck up.

@sps49sd

We DO have the right to these infantry type weapons.

Yeah, but your shouldn’t. Get the point?

@sps49sd

Saying I, or any poster here, or anyone else will shoot (innocent) grownups or children unless everyone is disarmed is bullshit.

And yet, innocent people (including children) got shot well over 200 times this year alone in mass shootings. Who exactly is doing that if not, “…or anyone else…”? Nitwit.

@sps49sd

Are you aware of how many firearms were not turned in in Australia? Or how many have been turned in after New Zealand’s recent laws? Hint: it’s not many.

More than none at all and nobody expected an overnight result. It’s a generational change. It’s going to take time and things will improve as time passes. That’s the point of all this. Not so that you can wank off about how small of a difference a year or two makes.

@sps49sd

You demonstrate that you don’t know much of what you are discussing.

1. There are no records of most legally purchased weapons.
   This would impede the rest of your approach.

Fuck off some more right now. Some states do maintain records. Some federal agencies do as well. It’s place to start. If laws change requiring registering, records will improve. Quit trying to weasel that since the perfect solution can’t be had then no solution can be had. That’s a lie you tell yourself and others stupid enough to believe it.

@sps49sd

And I will repeat- the need for protection is not bullshit. People have and do use firearms to protect themselves.

Protection from WHO? I keep asking this question and I have yet to get the answer. Who is coming for you, you paranoid wanker?

@sps49sd

But small arms in citizens’ hands may have, and may in the future, prevent unlawful government confrontations or actions. It is a check on the government that would need serious force to overcome. What would our government have that is worth initiating that kind of conflict? Hopefully, none.

If it comes to that, we’re all fucked. And your AR-15, that gives you so many wet dreams now, will be of absolutely no fucking consequence to you if that day comes, because they’ll kill you first, dumbass.

[sps49sd]

@septimus

Hi sps49sd …Hi there again, sps49sd ! Are you one of the many willfully obtuse right-wingnuts? Or just stupid?

No one doubts that America has excellent doctors, excellent hospitals and so on. Who said otherwise? Are you really so stupid that you thought this was under debate?

The reason America’s healthcare system is a laughingstock is the high cost — more than TWICE the cost in Germany which is 2nd-most expensive in G7 — and the fact that MANY MILLIONS of Americans are UNINSURED. This is discussed in other threads. Or just Google “Explain things to me like I’m an Idiot.”

In America, when someone collapses on the street they often scream “DON’T phone for an ambulance!!” They don’t want to pay $5000+ for an unnecessary ride.

Here in Thailand my relative, with NO insurance, recently had an epileptic fit and fell off his motorbike. An ambulance was summoned and took him to hospital. Guess how much my relative had to pay? Hint: It starts with ‘Z’ and rhymes with “Nero.”

I hope I didn’t insult you so much you go away, sps49sd. We’d love to hear from you! Very few of the stupid angry white males who vote for Trump have the literacy skills to post on message boards. So we’re sincerely curious to understand your perspective!

I’m not stupid, I’m not angry, I’m not white, and I was addressing assertions you made.

Assuming I am stupid, and recommending I search “Explain things to me like I’m an Idiot”, reminds me that I’m in the BBQ Pit. Reasonable discussion is lost here, go ahead and rant away, my intention is providing a counterpoint to the invective and spittle best exemplified by BobLibDem.

[sps49sd]

@QuickSilver

(etc)…
Protection from WHO? I keep asking this question and I have yet to get the answer. Who is coming for you, you paranoid wanker?

Nobody has come for me. An individual did come for a family member years ago, and she is glad that she was armed. She was (and is) armed because she made the decision to be prepared for similar events.

People like you want to disarm those who have a self defense need. I hope your name calling does not accomplish your goal.