Would you mandate all adults to get the vaccine once approved? Let’s assume that the current data holds and that adults are more effective transmitters than kids and that adult universal vaccination would have huge public health impact, larger than vaccinating kids would, that without a mandate too few would get vaccinated to achieve herd immunity, and the was a logistically feasible means to enforce the mandate (documentation as part of your tax return else a sizable fine, something) … would be in favor of the universal coercive approach?
I realize that seems to make folk sense to you but not all transmission increases with kid hygiene. Poop viruses for sure! Old infectious disease statement: preschooler in your household and no matter how much you clean you have a layer of stool on every surface, just accept the fact. Snot and drool too. Droplets likely (but not proven) not as much. That’s the experts talking about them being closer to the ground and less force out. Settle in closer. Aerosol? As cited most of the aerosol spread per hour is during regular breathing. Not yelling or coughing or sneezing. Less volume per breath is less in the air even if they have the same lower respiratory tract viral load. If, as cited, most aerosol spread is by super producers, then that is not a yelling or hygiene issue. It is one of physiology. So what portion of SARS- CoV-2 real world transmission is by which mode potentially matters mightily.
I don’t know that I’d mandate anyone getting it until we know more about the safety and efficacy. Don’t most vaccines get approved a while before they are mandated? I know that when my daughter was born, they asked me if I wanted her to get the hep B vaccine, and a couple years later, when my son was born, they vaccinated him in the hospital and just informed me they’d done so, I’m not sure I even had the chance to plead for a medical exemption or anything.
(I opted for the hep B vaccine for my daughter, and I would have for my son. I was just surprised at the complete lack of parental input.)
On the other hand, many years ago, a friend was visiting Franco’s Spain when some nasty disease broke out in the area. (Cholera? Is there a vaccine for that?) Anyway, the army went town to town and rounded up everyone at gun point, and my friend found himself in a line with all the locals, waiting to get vaccinated. And vaccinated they all were, and the disease stopped spreading. So… At least under a fascist dictatorship, that’s what a universal mandate looks like.
It’s shocking to me how many adults who work with young children do not even know about the every-10-year booster recommendation for the pertussis-diphtheria-tetanus vaccine. There need to be more PSAs regarding this, but really, there should be some info passed on when people are hired to work with babies, toddlers, and small children. I think a lot more people would voluntarily come in alignment with getting this vaccine if there were.
I knew about it, because the Army told me, and I made sure mine was up-to-date before I got pregnant. Then got another one right before my son turned 10. DH was in the reserves when I got pregnant, so his was up-to-date. I was really careful with my son and who he was exposed to. My mother had enough OCD to be up-to-date, and my stepfather did, because he was ex-military (and married to my mother). When people asked to hold him before he had his DTaP shot, I’d ask them if they were up-to-date, and people who stared blankly at me didn’t get to hold him. I felt like a jackass saying no, but better to ruffle someone’s feathers a little, than have my infant son on a ventilator.
I was probably a little paranoid, because he passed meconium before he was born, and was suctioned immediately, and but a strange dint of what turned out to be luck, didn’t breathe right away after birth, but had to be ventilated. It meant that he didn’t aspirate meconium, which is a major cause of pneumonia in newborns-- I had a friend whose newborn spent 6 weeks in the NICU because of this, so when they took precautions with my son, I did not object-- he got a couple of doses of an antibiotic, and was in an isolette for 12 hours after birth. He didn’t get pneumonia. I think the whole experience made me extra-cautious about his health.
Let’s say the governmental bodies approve it and you personally trust them, even in a Trump administration. Would you want to force the vaccine on those adults without similar faith in that decision making process? Who feel it was rushed or inadequate or are of communities with historical justification for being skeptical? If they don’t get it then there’s not enough vaccinated to get herd immunity…
I’ve already said that I think it’s likely that people who work in healthcare and others who deal with the public up close and personal (including grocery store workers) will be required to have a Covid-19 vaccine, which I think would be a valid policy, even if some of those affected rant about it being a “coercive approach”.
We had a few docs at our hospital protesting vociferously when the administration first required flu vaccination for all personnel in order to protect patients (gripes were ostensibly over vaccine risk, though I suspect a major reason was surgeons not liking being told what to do). That policy’s been in effect for several years now, and while it’s difficult to gauge effectiveness, there have been no flu outbreaks at the facility, and no docs or other workers experiencing significant vaccine reactions to my knowledge.
It’s well to be wary of any Trumpian October Surprise vaccine for Covid-19, but also important not to dismiss a vaccine out of hand without knowing its history and examining the clinical trials closely. Focusing on administration motives and talking about “coercion” and “forced” vaccination risks playing into the hands of antivax leaders who have already been busy drumming up fear, uncertainty and doubt about any vaccine, no matter how well vetted.
A timeline of a vaccine first available by next spring and evaluated in the field for some months afterward before widespread implementation would represent a faster development-to-use pace than we’ve seen before, but based on expert opinion it might be doable.
I’m not the poster you are addressing, but my experience of people is that a mandate without teeth, which is what we’d likely have in the US, is an invitation for fraud and people who would otherwise not think twice about getting vaccinated, deciding not to, for no other reason than they don’t want to be told what to do. That may not be what they say– they may gripe about side effects, or the possibility of getting sick from the vaccine itself, but there are plenty of studies demonstrating that people who just don’t want to do something fool themselves into thinking they have a good reason.
This is why I’ve ultimately been against mandates for other vaccines, even though I genuinely believe everyone should be vaccinated for everything, and there’s no excuse not to be, other than some really extreme medical conditions.
I work for a preschool that has a no vaccine = you don’t go here, no exceptions-- no even medical ones policy. I really admire the principal for taking that stance. She made the choice of protecting that large number of pregnant mothers who come and go during the day over admitting children with medical exemptions for vaccinations.
I’m sure that when there’s a COVID-19 vaccine there will be a “get it, or you don’t work here” policy for the staff, just like there is right now for flu and adult DPT, and I’m glad to work for a place like that.
But I think I’m realistic about the effects on the public of a mandate. I don’t think it would achieve a high vaccination rate-- not as much as a gentler approach, unless the country is prepared to do something like refuse to issue tax refunds or renew licenses for people who haven’t been vaccinated-- sort of like what finally worked to get deadbeat parents to begin finally paying in a big way.
All adults? All children? No. Ask me again 2 years after a vaccine is widely available, though, and I might give a different answer.
All healthcare workers? Maybe, although I think the mandate should come from employers, not the government. (And I would chose a healthcare provider who was subject to mandatory vaccination over one who wasn’t.) All children in school X? Maybe. Again, I think the mandate should come from the school, but for public schools, that IS “the government”. I’d make it easy to keep your kid out of school if I instituted that policy, however. Probably not right away, though.
Also, my answer changes depending on what we see this fall, when many schools DO open without a vaccine. If it turns out there are few, minor spreading events from the schools, then no, it seems overly aggressive to also mandate a brand-new vaccine. If it turns out that schools that take precautions X, Y, and Z fare pretty well, then again, I’d go for X, Y, and Z before implementing a vaccine mandate. If we have widespread explosions in cases when the schools open, and contact tracing shows that all those sick teachers probably caught it from their kids, then I would be more inclined to gamble on pushing a vaccine to kids.
As you say, preliminary data suggests that elementary schools probably shouldn’t require vaccination. High schools may be a different story.
The biggest concerns about vaccines is that they seem to be rushing or skipping Phase III entirely. If antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) is at play here, the jabs will just make it worse (like Dengue). They should take their time with making these.
It’s the WSJ, so it’s probably paywalled, but the gist is that the administration is pushing the states to allow the designated vaccine distribution company to build distribution centers by Nov 1.
And maybe we don’t need to complete phase 3 testing.
But don’t worry, you can trust us.
Oh, but the US isn’t working with the international effort, because the WHO is involved, so we’ll need our own vaccine.
It’s shocking to ME that as someone who is very pro-vaccine who strives to keep up with my adult boosters that I have not been able to GET a booster for those for over four years - yes, I’m four years overdue. It’s either “I don’t do that here” or “I’m short on that and reserving it for infants/toddlers/children” (which at least makes sense) or some other damn excuse.
While I don’t work with kids or old people directly, I still have contact with over 200-300 people a day when working as a cashier, of all ages and health status. Also, I don’t care to catch pertussis even if as an adult it would be a “mild” illness. Or the other two illnesses, either.
