KellyM, please show me one post where I have said I have a hatred of homosexuality. This whole line of reasoning is wrong, and is why I dislike the term homophobic, as (and I honestly don’t care what the dictionary says) it is used as a word to show people who hate homosexuals. So if you wouldn’t mind backing up your statement, then we’ll be on the same page. So one or two statements from either “this thread” or “other threads” would suffice. Let me preface it by saying I think speeding is wrong. (can you see where I’m going with this?) There are some things I dislike, but to say because I dislike it it means I hate something is a terribly illogical statement. For instance I dislike the term homophobia to be applied to anyone who questions or disagrees with anything, the same way I dislike how some use the term ‘fundie’. But if I say to an athiest that I dislike the term, I wouldn’t get a reply like ‘That’s because you hate atheists.’
SVT said, “There are some things I dislike, but to say because I dislike it it means I hate something is a terribly illogical statement.”
Subscribing to a religion that says that gay people will burn in hell for eternity is about as strong a hate statement as I can think of. This is how “your people” interpret the bible. You believe the same things the other members of your church believe. You interpret scripture in a way that makes it impossible for you to accept a gay person into eternal salvation. The alternative is not just that the gay folks don’t get to join the club – they are destined to be tortured by your god forever. How could anyone interpret that to be anything BUT hate? Please explain to me where the love is here. And explain how a gay child of yours would derive anything but hate and abandonment from you.
Please start another thread if you want to debate the meaning of the word “homophobic,” which was not included in the OP.
Svt4Him, I actually read through your recent posts before posting that because I figured you would probably say that. I think your recent posts in this thread and in several other recent homosexuality-related threads make your position quite clear, although you never come out and say “I hate fags” like some people do. However, your failure to put words to that belief does not mean that you don’t have it. I think, rather, that you do have a hatred of homosexuals (or at least of homosexuality) but are ashamed to admit it (possibly even to yourself).
As I also predicted, you would prefer that I characterize your attitude as a “dislike”. I’ve already told you that I will not indulge you in that manner. I’m not letting you off the hook on this one. As far as I can tell, your attitude toward homosexuality amounts to hatred, and I will call it that until you convince me otherwise
I think you are properly characterized as a homophobe; refraining from making such characterization is also something I will not indulge in.
That said, let’s return to the OP. Hypothetically assuming your son were gay, how would you reconcile your feelings about homosexuality with your professed love for him? Would you attend his wedding? Allow him to bring his boyfriend to family gatherings? Publicly acknowledge his relationship? Be seen in public with the two of them? Pretend that his boyfriend was “just a friend”? Quietly tolerate his aberrance but refuse to show any acceptance whatsoever of it? Throw him out of the house? Stop talking to him entirely? Would you pressure him to “give up” being gay? Tell him that God disapproves? Tell him that he is going to hell if he doesn’t give up being gay? I would like to see more details than the “I hope I would still love him just as much” answer you gave before.
First rule of Fight Club is that we don’t talk about Fight Club.
First rule of debate with some Dopers is that, if our opponents don’t say things that we want them to say, assume that they did anyway and react to it.
Regards,
Shodan
First rule of Shodan: dig till you find SOMETHING to focus your objections on so you don’t have to deal directly with the OP.
I had a once-good friend who I hadn’t seen in years. I ran into her and we were talking about our kids (mine was going through some difficult times). She laughed and said, “Well at least he isn’t gay!”
I thought about her kid and what he’ll have to face if it turns out he’s gay. She has him pegged for the clergy and takes every opportunity to cram her beliefs into everyone’s face.
These rules that so many of the religious live by are the building blocks of hate in our society. Anyone who doesn’t see the direct correlation between these teachings and MAJOR problems such as bullying, gaybashing, unfair laws, destruction of personal liberty, suicide rates, homelessness, and the like – has their head in the sand.
Leading by example, eh?
I’d just like to point out that the word “homophobic” is getting thrown around WAY too much in ways totally outside its actual meaning. For instance, labeling IzzyR a homophobe is entirely wrong. We tend to name anyone who voices an objection to homosexuality from any perspective a homophobe. A homophobe is someone who FEARS homosexuality. Izzy, like other religious posters on this thread, are generally voicing opposition to gay sex on religious grounds; this does not mean they fear gay people or homosexuality itself. I think that term has just become a catchall name for people you want to brand as wrong or anti-gay, when in reality their objection is not to homosexuals but a specific brand of sex. They’re not gay-bashing; don’t make it sound like they are.
Ah, Zahava424, you’re cute when you’re so innocent. Don’t you know that “homophobe” means anyone who disagrees with homosexuals? I’ve been one for years and didn’t even know it until lissener pointed it out for me. Boy were my gay friends surprised!
Zahava424 you’re playing on a field that is owned by the team you’re arguing with, who also keeps changing the lines and rules, and is also the ref. It’s a losing battle. That is why the fight against ignorance is taking so long.
(a) First of all, I’m back a bit late because of problems recovering access…
(b) Well, Kalhoun that may be a whole 'nother debate topic… but one in which current facts-on-the-ground overwhelmingly favor your point; right now if you are (or I am) gay, that will be the Big Deal, regardless what else is going on in our lives, even if only because so much of the mainstream will (1) refuse to look beyond that and (2) freak out about it. Of course, we all (OK, not all, but many of us) hope and pray for the day when sexual orientation (or any other trait that we cannot turn on and off) will NOT be the central defining factor of what anyone’s life is all about and we can go on to deal with each other on fair terms. I guess I just have higher hopes for my fellow humans when the chips are down (and sure, an endless beer keg and a pony would be nice too…sigh).
© lissener, dude, I said your OP was clear; the exchanges following were what degenerated it. And there have been some posts in which the exchange has gotten rather, ah, brusque. But I guess it’s just my bourgeous sensibilities showing (y’know, always leave the adversary a gracious way to bow out, etc. ; obviously easy to say for us for whom it’s not a potential life-or-death situation). I will recognize the truth: you have at no point in the thread shown any sort of perverse pleasure in “watching them squirm”, AND made repeated attempts (latest in the 2:03pm post) to prevent this from drifting into a “what do you mean” exchange rather than “what would you do” (though I still believe “neither” is a right answer).
(d) And I’ll stop here, lest I entangle myself in Shodan’s Doper Rule even further!
Zahava424, as you no doubt already know, “homophobe” does not mean “one who fears homosexuals”. It means “one who hates, disapproves of, or dislikes homosexuals.” The argument from etymology is amusing, but both pointless and tired. Next you’re going to be telling me that “hydrophobia” means fear of water.
That said, I don’t think Izzy’s a homophobe, just someone with very curious beliefs about the incidence of homosexuality in his own culture. He hasn’t said anything that suggests that he hates or dislikes homosexuals, at least not that I’ve noticed.
I’m looking on dictionary.com, and while it may not be Webster’s or the OED, has this to say:
Etymologically speaking, I guess a person who hates homosexuals is a “homist”…which sounds really silly, but I wouldn’t know what else to call it.
Sorry, English major here. I like words to have an agreed-upon meaning.
ResIpsaLoquitor, the proper term probably requires constructing a word that means “sexual preference” and stuffing “-ist” onto the end of it. I can’t imagine what that word would be.
Well, for the sake of protecting civility in this conversation, maybe we should try to come up with one. A number of posters in this thread have become resentful of lissener’s blanket application of the term to include anyone who has any sort of negative feeling about homosexuality. My impression from some of the responses in here is that “homophobia” is a term to be equated with racism and sexism. If that’s the case, then it’s a mighty powerful label to be slapping on someone, and we’d better make darn sure we know what we’re saying when it’s applied.
Like I said, the word “homist” sounds goofy. (Of course, by using the word “goofy,” I may be acting derogatory towards cartoon dogs. I’ll try better.) “Orientationist” sounds awful. I’m short of ideas too. Any linguists out there want to help us out?
ResIpsaLoquitor, “homophobia” has come to be the word that has the meaning sought. I’m not really that concerned about whether people to whom that word applies appreciate its somewhat contorted derivation or abused etymology. In any case, I know what I’m saying when use the term, even if others do not.
The term is on a par with racist and sexist. In a way, it’s a shame that the term doesn’t show the relationship more clearly, as people might be more inclined to place all three immoral behaviors together and eschew all three.
I’m just an armchair linguist, and I’m afraid I’m not up to the task. I know we’ve got at least two linguists around here (both homosexual!), but I’m not sure that they or anyone could come up with a simple word that means what you want it to mean and doesn’t sound silly.
I have sometimes heard the word “heterosexist” used to mean something that shows unfair preference to heterosexuals or ignores the existence of non-heterosexual orientations. As in “The heterosexist media rarely portrays romantic relationships between two women”, “Heterosexist laws leave homosexual couples at a disadvantage”, or “My heterosexist parents never thought they could have a gay kid”. If this term came into common usage, then perhaps “homophobic” could be reserved for more extreme attitudes and behavior. As in “My homophobic parents never thought they could have a gay kid, so when I came out to them they told me I was evil and kicked me out onto the street.”
However, I’m not sure that “heterosexist” is really an improvement in terms of clarity. It has the advantage of ending in “ist” and resembling “sexist”, but just looking at the word on its own I think it could easily be taken to mean prejudice against heterosexuals. Also, we don’t draw such a clear linguistic distinction between, say, people who would be very uncomfortable if people of other races moved into their neighborhood and people who’d actually form a lynch mob if this happened – they’re all racists.
Wasn’t someone (a guy maybe?) around here using something along the lines of “hetero supremist” or something?
Kelly’s right. The word has evolved into the meaning she’s quoting. Homophobic is not fear…it is hate.
There, we’ve settled that. Now, can we get back to discussing what your average fundamentalist member of one of those religious that espouses the notion that being gay is sinful would do to a son who turned out to be gay? I think that was the original topic of this thread before it got hijacked over and over again.