False analogy
Deciding that homosexuality is a ‘sinful lifestyle’ is being judgmental about a person on a matter that is none of one’s business and often can do the person harm.
Being homosexual is a personal matter that does no harm to others per se.
I would be much more upset if the step were an intolerant little homophobe than if he were gay.
And where is lissener?
I’d likely have a problem with a (future) child if he/she became a fundamentalist. Mostly because it would indicate a complete and utter disapproval of me as a person (I’m a straight atheist and I happen to like evolution and cosmology just fine), and also of their mother. But then again, becoming a religious fundamentalist is a CHOICE. So without starting that debate up again, I don’t think it’s a very good comparison. In any case, my understanding was that as a parent, you’re supposed to raise your kids so they can lead happy lives and come to their own conclusions about the world - not to raise people who think and act just like you.
As long as they respect others.
I would be disappointed in my daughter if she turned into a homophobic fundie. Since such a turn of events would seriously impair our relationship, I sincerely hope she never does.
See, this is why I am glad I won’t ever have children: I’m honest enough to admit that I would be horrified if my child didn’t think exactly like me.
Two questions:
Define “homophobic fundie.” I do think this term is being thrown around a little too easily. What if your daughter were, say, an orthodox Catholic who believed that homosexuality were wrong, but didn’t favor lynchings or other general social stigma on a homosexual basis? What if she privately believed homosexuality were wrong, but actively kept her mouth shut?
Why does this appear to be a one-way street? I suspect that if a poster genuinely repeated your statement, but replaced “homophobic fundie” with “active homosexual,” they’d be stigmatized as an unloving parent/bigot. I think Marley23 has the best explanation I’ve heard so far, but I also think it doesn’t account for everyone. What if your kid had a powerful religious experience–let’s go so far as to say a vision (and, for the sake of argument, we empirically ruled out mental illness, alcohol, and drugs)–and their life was turned upside-down because of it.
In other words, although we can classify homosexuality as part of a person’s nature, versus religion as being a personal choice, for many people, the draw of religion is so powerful on either spiritual or intellectual grounds that they are unable to make any other choice.
But let’s say they STILL want a relationship with their homosexual parent. What then?
ResIpsaLoquitor: “homophobic fundie” == in the same category as Fred Phelps, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Don Wildmon, and Pat Buchanan.
In both of your specific hypotheticals, I would be disappointed because those results would mean that I failed to pass on values I feel are important to my child. I believe that it is universal truth that there is no immorality to homosexuality and I intend to pass that belief on to my child. I would also be disappointed because my failure would mean that my child would disapprove of me for who I am, and that’s not a good situation to have between parent and child.
It’s a one way street for the simple reason that being a homosexual is about who you love, while being a homophobe is about who you hate. I don’t want a hateful daughter. I’m perfectly happy with a loving daughter.
Then the next question is, what are “hate” and “love”? I would assume that were your daughter a “homophobe,” you would continue to “love” her in the conventional sense, regardless of your disappointment and disagreements. Furthermore, I assume that your love would encourage you to, at the very least, dialogue with your daughter and continue to bring her to see your POV. That’s what motivates you to instill certain values to begin, correct? Can’t the same then be said of her perspective, if she’s working from the idea that she doesn’t want her parent to go to hell? Why is it hateful, as opposed to (severely, if you will) misguided love?
I do want to clarify your positions, though: a “homophobe fundie” is a Fred Phelps type. Let’s separate this out further: what’s a “homophobe” and a “fundie”? Are orthodox Muslims who believe that homosexuality is sinful just “homophobes”? How about orthodox Jews? How about Catholics, who believe homosexuality is wrong, but aren’t following the Levitical perspective?
In other words, I’m just trying to clarify your positions. If your daughter were a rabid anti-gay religious person, she’d be a “homophobe fundie” and a relationship would be difficult or impossible, but if she were only anti-gay but somewhat lax, she’d merely be a disappointment?
The SDMB administrators deal with trolls in the same manner. CECIL BE PRAISED! LALALALALALALALALALALALALALA!
As another Orthodox Jew, let me throw my opinion out there. Though it’s not the most widely held, I’ve never read or heard anything that really contradicts it according to Jewish law.
Though homosexual sex is almost definitely forbidden under Orthodox Judaism, being gay certainly isn’t. How could it be? You are who G-d has made you, and that is not punishable. Only your actions are punishable.
I would continue loving my child. I would probably start researching, on a practical level, what the actual prohibitions are. Once I have enough knowledge to make an informed opinion, I would take a stance on the way I think my child should live within the parameters of Jewish law. This may, for the record, involve abstaining for life.
I would hope that my child would remain living according to Jewish law, but if he chose not to, I would no more stop loving him than if he chose not to keep kosher. I would be sad about this choice, but I am aware that it is not for me to define these boundaries.
Though I know of no one else who has ever said this, the following is my general view of the situation. Gay people must be such amazing human beings for G-d to have given them such an immense test of faith. This seems to me to be not at all at odds with the Jewish law, and it maintains a non-judgemental, non-totalitarian attitude, so I can’t imagine why it’s not more prevalent. This is my position.
What if my child grew up into a fundamentalist who felt that homosexuality was wrong? I would hope and work at making sure our relationship was not damaged over it, but I fear it would be. It is difficult to have a trusting and loving relationship when one person, for lack of a better term, looks down on another. I don’t mean disdain per se, but more the pity we often feel when someone seems to be doing something incredibly wrong. Adult children and their parents must, at some point, start communicating with each other as peers or near peers if a real relationship is to be maintained. I’m not sure thats easy when such circumstances exist.
IzzyR, just because something is “unheard of,” doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. If your child told you he was gay, you might react in any number of ways - but the one thing you probably would **not **do would be to tell the news to all your friends, neighbors or relatives. It would be a very closely guarded secret. So is it too much of a stretch to consider that this has happened many times in your community, but the people involved think their situation is unique?
I knew I was gay from an early age. But if I had announced this fact to my parents (liberal, Reform Jews), they would have dragged me to the nearest therapist to get “cured.” This was back in the 50s-60s, and people’s ideas were pretty much what yours are today. Being gay was something that happened in other people’s families, and it was either a sin or a serious mental illness. And even years before I ever acted on these feelings, I knew I had to simply lie about it, regardless of the enormous psychological devastation this caused. You have no idea what that kind of isolation can do to a person who has no place to turn for help in dealing with this.
Fortunately, my parents and I and our community eventually evolved to the point where the stigma started to break down, but I was already an adult by then, and no longer needed anyone’s approval.
Unfortunately, your particular community is stuck in a belief system that cannot evolve in this way. So if one of your kids is gay, he probably won’t tell you, fearing your disapproval and its consequences. He’ll either break away from your community entirely, or learn to repress his most basic feelings. He’ll probably get married, have lots of kids, and lead an examplary life, in your eyes. But his attraction to men will never go away, and he’ll wind up a lonely, frustrated, bitter old man who derives no pleasure from all the “right” choices he’s made.
Is that the life you want for your child?
Bless you, Zahava424. Will you call my Fundie Mom and have a talk with her?
Hey, AlahAkbar- I’m always curious to hear other religious attitudes towards homosexuality. We’ve heard the various sides of the Jewish perspective, through IzzyR and myself. We have had the fundamentalist Christian view several times on this thread. I’m curious to hear what you mean exactly by
“We Muslims do not allow homosexuality to invade our world. We deal with homosexuals swiftly and as described in the Koran.”
How is it described in the Quran? Are you required to denounce it, kill homosexuals, exile/excommunicate them, what? When you sasy that you don’t allow homosexuality to invade your world, do you mean those who practice gay sex or just those who happen to be gay? I’m just curious as to the details; Your post was pretty nonspecific.
Thanks for the validation, Homebrew. Sometimes I wonder if I sound crazy-- Does anyone out there think I’m speaking contrary to the traditional religious perspective under Judeo-Christian values? I can’t imagine how, but my stance (see above) seems to be so rare that I wonder if I’m missing some obscure commandment-- Thou shalt have disdain for those born gay. After all, if you believe that G-d knows what he’s doing when he creates people, then why condemn people for how they were created?
Zahava, as a more-or-less orthodox (little-o) liberal Christian, I’d have to say that you are speaking out of a firm and laudable commitment to Judaeo-Christian values, as opposed to a Commitment to Western Civilization mores founded more or less in Christianity with a pinch of Judaism thrown in that most religious conservatives mean when they speak of “standing for (Judaeo-)Christian values.”
And, not having encountered you before, I must say welcome. I do like your way of cutting to the heart of issues with both thoughfulness and compassion.
Well, why do we eat? To nourish ourselves so that we are fit to reproduce. Life has a purpose, and its purpose is to continue living. Not reproducing is essentially death of your genes, and thus the end of life for the genetic material that created you. Genes don’t serve us, we serve them. The conscious individual, with all his loves, fears, hopes and dreams means nothing to the gene in the scope of evolutionary survival.
I don’t know why people want to complicate their assessment of human life with unnecessary trivialities, when the answers are already there and quite plain to see.
j66, wanting to spare your child of pain is an aftereffect of wanting him to reproduce and continue your bloodline. Any pain will be debilitating to his/her chances of successfully bearing and raising their offspring. Your feelings of love and compassion towards your children isn’t some grand, mystical groove; it is merely a helpful mechanism that has been adapted into your behavior.
Headcoat - so, not wanting your child to be beaten up at school and discriminated against throughout his/her life is just you wanting him/her to reproduce? Sure. In this age, I think, family’s a more ethereal concept than in the stone age. Would you consider an adopted child part of your family?
Also - yeah, in orthodox Judaism, it’s never said specifically that being gay will keep you out of Heaven, just that gay sex will. And it’s only gays that are mentioned, actually, not lesbians.
Christianity is another question entirely - Paul states that being homosexual will keep you out of heaven, God implies that he has to restrain the urge to strike gays down and that they are a disgrace… In fact, I think the Bible’s quite sexist, and a lot of people overlook that, or conveniently forget parts like “Women can’t wear men’s clothing.”
I don’t have access on weekends for now.
I also welcome Zahava, and appreciate her (?) perspective.
As far as how I’d react if a child of mine chose to become narrowminded and condemnatory, first of all that’s a strawman and a red herring and a highjack, all rolled into one. It draws a false parallel between being and choosing.
Nonetheless, to maintain the appearance of evenhandedness–though to a certain degree I feel like I’m an enabler in Shodan’s struggle with irrelevancy–I’d probably take it as a judgment on me as a parent; what else could it be? As such, it probably wouldn’t be a surprise: it would probably reflect ongoing problems. Or, simply teenage rebellion. So I might deal with it the way some parents deal with blue hair or noserings.
I’d certainly have learned enough, I hope, from my own experiences, not to pull rank and obstinately OPPOSE it, or forbid it or something.
If it DID come out of the blue, as a result of a sudden brainwashing or something, I’d be as pissed as if my kid had been assaulted, but I’d hope to deal with it in the same way; rote opposition is way antiproductive. I’d like to think I’d be creative: nail his hands to the wall, say, and go, “How do you like your god naaaaaaaaaow?”
Ooookay . . . Since I can’t have children, should I stop eating and starve myself to death? I already abstain from sex—for other reasons—but since I “have no reason to live,” I guess I should leave the food for those who have a useful purpose in life?