To add more fuel to the fire…there was recently a panel on Buffy at the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences in Los Angeles.
The moderator asked Joss about the ending of Season Six, with Spike. She said, “I thought Spike wanted the chip taken out,” and Joss said,** “No - that’s what you were misled to believe. It’s called a plot twist.” **
Also…James Marsters confirmed that Spike will be a vampire with a soul, not a human, as speculated.
So, at least I don’t have to wait until October to gloat…
Also revealed at ATAS-LA:[ul][li]Alyson Hannigan will be travelling to London to shoot scenes for the season opener. (a reconciliation with Giles, perhaps?)[/li][li]Sunnydale High School will reopen during the season premire[/li][li]Dawn’s relationship with Spike will take a turn for the worse because of his attempted rape of Buffy.[/li][li]More from James Marsters: "…he added that he doesn’t know if Spike will turn out to be good or evil. ‘I could be unleashed as the big villain, or I could be the big goody two-shoes crackerjack boy,’ he said. ‘I have no idea.’ " Quote from Joss Whedon: “Spike will not become Angel. Angel is Angel. That’s been done. Spike will become… something that he’s never been before and something that James has never played before”[/ul][/li]
Now some may claim that having Spike be a vampire w/a soul is lame, because it’s just a retread of Angel. But I think it’s a very cool idea. They’ll be able to revisit some of the same issues that Angel dealt with, but with a whole new twist. I think it will be very interesting to see how Spike deals with issues such as guilt and accountablity. Also…now that we know Spike will be vamp with a soul, I think we can pretty much drop the idea that he’ll have the same wimpy personality he had as a human. He’s going to be “Spike”, NOT “William”…so there’s really no need to refer to him by his human name!
Hmmm. Can’t really see the Peroxided One as Big Bad- he’s suffered too much, struggled to hard and too far toward redemption for that, even though it’s been three steps forward, two steps back all the way. And if you think about it, the whole chip thing in Season Four was designed to set Spike up as a sympathetic character- reducing a powerful demon warrior to the status of a beggar, then imaking him Love’s Bitch in Season Five. That’s an awful lot of stage setting to be making him back into the Big Bad. Shame about him screwing his relationship with Dawn, though. The only time prior to the Season Six finale that Dawn showed any real strength, or we got any real insight into what was going on in her head was when she was with Spike- he seemed to bring something out in her that none of the other characters did. Actually, I haven’t really seen much of Season Six, but in Seaspm Fove, I thought that the Spike/Dawn combo was the most interesting relationship on the show.
I think Spike’s had a tough row to hoe as far as his struggle for redemption, and getting his soul back isn’t going to make things any easier. I figure he’s going to be in for one more major setback, probably with Xander as a major factor. Xander has always been the most antagonistic toward Spike, probably because being the weakest of the Scoobies, he took advantage of Spike’s defanging as an opportunity to get over on the Big Bad.
I’m also very curious about what’s going to happen with Xander and Anya, now that she’s “got her vengeance on again”. The last three episodes of last season, they were pretty much too busy stopping Willow from destroying the world for anything to be done with that relationship. Or with Anya’s character, for that matter. And does anyone see the Anya getting her vengeance on again as a foreshadowing of Spike’s re-ensoulment?
Okay, my whole problem with the Spike-has-a-soul bit is that, if getting a perma-soul were that easy, why didn’t Angel do it? I mean, okay, I don’t mean to say easy, per se, but Angel really wanted a soul that wouldn’t go away when he slept with Buffy, right? And I, for one, have no doubt that Angel could kick Spike’s sorry ass up and down Sunnydale. That, at least, has been proven by the series (How many times did Angel kick Spike’s blonde butt?). So, if it was possible to acquire a soul by travelling to that place (Africa?) and killing those guys, why didn’t Angel do it in season three? He had the motivation and the ability…
Let’s look at Buffy’s record – Angel didn’t make much effort to win his soul back. Parker was gone practically before the condom came off. Riley was so dull that he not only stayed with Buffy longer than anyone else ever had, but then married practically the next woman he met. Spike… well, Spike’s sexual appetites are clearly a little odd.
What’s that all add up to? Buffy’s a lousy lay. So horrible that Angel would rather be tormented-broody guy just so he has an excuse not to have to sleep with her again (and then jumped at the chance to turn back into tormented-broody guy once he became human again). So horrible that Parker didn’t even bother sticking around for a second date. So horrible that once Riley found out that sex could be good with someone else, he married her on the spot. So horrible that Spike, after months of actually enjoying this bad sex, still had to flee to another continent on some malarkey soul-restoring quest just to take a break from its horribleness.
Um, I think it’s because Angelus didn’t really want his soul back. It was stuffed back in as the result of a curse. And though Angel may be physically stronger than Spike, I think he’s psychologically weaker. Angel seems to be reactive where Spike is proactive. Angel may well have the motivation and the ability, but I just don’t think it would be in his nature to say, “Alright, that’s it, I’m going to get my sodding soul back.” (or make it permanent, as the case may be) Also, he doesn’t have a motorcycle. Motorcycle very important in quest for soul. (Don’t ask me why, I just think that if you’re going to go off in search of your soul, you should do it on a motorcycle.)
Remember in (was it The Wish?) the alternate Sunnydale Cordelia wished up, Angel just passively took the torture dished out to him by the Master and his minions (can I play with the puppy?) until alternate Buffy came in and busted his ass out. Spike, on the other hand, when being tortured by Glory, goaded her, and at least partially effected his own escape by deliberately pissing her off to the point that she kicked him through the door. Angel’s nature seems to be to accept his situation as it is, and try to deal as best he can. He suffers willingly, but passively.
Spike, on the other hand, will actively embrace suffering. As far back as Family, which was fairly early on in Season Five, he was willing to risk the chip-induced pain caused by punching Tara in the face in order to prove that she was, in fact, not a demon, and this after protesting that he didn’t care. He also bloody well escaped from the Initiative, didn’t he? And I don’t think for a moment that he expected that spooky demon-dude to just hand back his soul just because he asked nicely. He knew he was going to have to suffer to get it, and his attitude? “Here we are now, entertain us!”
BTW, fearless prediction for Season Seven- I predict a romance between Spike and Willow, who will be drawn together by the guilt they feel over doing such things as trying to rape Buffy/destroy the world. And, hey, Willow’s already proven that she can, in the words of Faith, “drive stick”. It won’t last the whole season, 'cause Spike’s still in love with Buffy, but figures he’s blown any chance he ever had of gaining her love/trust.
Um, I think it’s because Angelus didn’t really want his soul back. It was stuffed back in as the result of a curse. And though Angel may be physically stronger than Spike, I think he’s psychologically weaker. Angel seems to be reactive where Spike is proactive. Angel may well have the motivation and the ability, but I just don’t think it would be in his nature to say, “Alright, that’s it, I’m going to get my sodding soul back.” (or make it permanent, as the case may be) Also, he doesn’t have a motorcycle. Motorcycle very important in quest for soul. (Don’t ask me why, I just think that if you’re going to go off in search of your soul, you should do it on a motorcycle.)
Remember in (was it The Wish?) the alternate Sunnydale Cordelia wished up, Angel just passively took the torture dished out to him by the Master and his minions (can I play with the puppy?) until alternate Buffy came in and busted his ass out. Spike, on the other hand, when being tortured by Glory, goaded her, and at least partially effected his own escape by deliberately pissing her off to the point that she kicked him through the door. Angel’s nature seems to be to accept his situation as it is, and try to deal as best he can. He suffers willingly, but passively.
Spike, on the other hand, will actively embrace suffering. As far back as Family, which was fairly early on in Season Five, he was willing to risk the chip-induced pain caused by punching Tara in the face in order to prove that she was, in fact, not a demon, and this after protesting that he didn’t care. He also bloody well escaped from the Initiative, didn’t he? And I don’t think for a moment that he expected that spooky demon-dude to just hand back his soul just because he asked nicely. He knew he was going to have to suffer to get it, and his attitude? “Here we are now, entertain us!”
BTW, fearless prediction for Season Seven- I predict a romance between Spike and Willow, who will be drawn together by the guilt they feel over doing such things as trying to rape Buffy/destroy the world. And, hey, Willow’s already proven that she can, in the words of Faith, “drive stick”. It won’t last the whole season, 'cause Spike’s still in love with Buffy, but figures he’s blown any chance he ever had of gaining her love/trust.
Ha, no way, Thea… Spike and Willow? Monday must be rough on you!
Actually, though, there are some really pressing questions about what the heck is going to be up with Willow. No way she’ll go back to the wallflower routine.
I hope Xander gets his shit together with respect to Anya. I do so adore her.
erislover, I think you and I may be the only people on this board who like Anya. I hope she and Xander can get it back together.
So… I hear that British bookmakers will take bets on just about anything. Anyone out there want to give me odds that Spike shags Willow in Season Seven?
I’m another fan of Anya. I think she’s a hoot, but I’ll admit that her “I don’t understand these humans” shtick can grow a tad thin. Only on occasion, though.
What kind of odds do we get, Thea? Do dreams and/or alternate universes and/or denizens thereof count (I have a sneaky feeling that VampWillow will return at some point)?
A very good question. I think we can kludge together a half-decent answer though. Angel couldn’t do this because he already had a soul. You can’t restore what’s already there. Angelus could have done this, but of course he lacked the motivation (and how!)
Interesting theory stankow. Oddly, I have never personally found SMG attractive, in spite of being a heterosexual male. I attribute this to the “Alyson Hannigan Effect”…any woman on the same show as her is going to look plain by comparison.
On the other hand, Riley really did seem to be enjoying himself in “Where the Wild Things Are”…unless you take his final comment at face value. Plus, I would have thought that if she really were a “lousy lay”, Angelus would have taunted her about it in “Surprise”, instead of saying she was “like a pro”.
Fascinating theory. I hadn’t thought of it that way before. Spike at the very least isn’t as hampered by soul-induced moral and ethical self doubt. Perhaps now that will change…
It would be a hell of a plot twist. I can’t help but remember that scene in “The Initiative”…“It’s ok, I’m sure it happens to all the vampires…” Joss can say he was laying down little hints all along.
One thing about this scenario that intrigues me is that I think it might not be as offensive to any Willow/Tara fans that are still watching the show as her getting together with, say, Xander, on the theory that this is something we all know just can’t last. Just a thought.
Hey hey! I started a whole thread in this very forum about how I liked Anya. Although I must say I am curiously unnattracted to her, due no doubt to the “Hannigan Effect” I mentioned above. I’d like to see them get back together too, but a part of me is hoping to see Xander and Willow finally give it a go, just because I feel so bad for Willow.
Um, alternate realities and denizens thereof do not count. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if VampireWillow were to make an appearance she would be all over Spike like bran on whole-grain rice. I mean, let’s face it, the dude’s freaking gorgeous, right? But, I don’t know if Spike with a soul would go for her, unless he thought he was dealing with RealWillow.
And,Wierd Al Eienstien, I really don’t think it would be that hellishuva plot twist to pair Spike and Willow up for a few episodes. What with the feelings of guilt Willow will have over having tried to destroy the world, and the now-ensouled Spike will have over almost everything he’s done over the last century and a half or so, plus the fact that once they both get back to Sunnydale, Willow will probably be the only one of the Scoobies who would actually have anything to do with Spike, at least for a while, I think it’s logical that the two of them would seek comfort in one another’s embrace.
from “The Initiative”:
Spike: I don’t understand it. This has never happened to me before.
Willow: Doesn’t it happen to all the vampires?
Spike: Not to me!
I think that this may be the single funniest scene, not only ever on BtVS, but in the entire history of television. And I’ve watched * Red Dwarf*!!!
