How expensive? I have an extra IBM.
Action movies aside, your first shot in a defense situation may not find you to be in a convenient position (as at a range) for shouldering and aiming your gun. There, I think, is the advantage of a pistol or a shortened shotgun. The disadvantage may be in getting off any subaequent shots, if need be.
Noise and flame are, IMO, good things.
I know, Johnny. I was bemoaning that fact.
$600 and up I believe for surplus.
I will consider revolvers. I’m not sure I trust semi-auto pistols not to jam. My perceived downside of any solid round is penetration. Many gun owners scoff at the idea of nailing your neighbor, but it happens and it worries me.
If you are within grappling range you are way too close to be drawing and firing any firearm. This is the way that people get guns taken away and used against them, and many guns (such as double action revolvers) can be immobilized by a grab.
As Johnny L.A. indicated, the minimum barrel length with shotguns is 18" (manufacturers provide them at 18.5" due to ambiguities in ATF regulations) and there are limitations on the overall length that vary from state to state. I’m going to maintain the assertion that it is better to leave the standard stock in place for the afformentioned reasons.
Er, not so much. The flash and blast affect you as much as they do your opponents, and within a confined area the blast of a shotgun or magnum pistol will likely affect hearing loss of all occupying parties.
Modern autoloaders using quality ammunition rarely have serious problems with jamming, as long as they are handled correctly, i.e. not limp-wristed or fired in some contorted pose. I’ve seen Glocks and Sigs go hundreds of rounds without a single jam. And clearing a feed or ejection jam on an autoloaders is a simple matter of the tap-rack-bang drill. OTOH, the mechanism on a revolver is exposed, sensitive to grit, and easily damaged or misaligned.
You are wise to be concerned about overpenetration, and a shotgun is ideal for controlling that, but modern major power hollowpoint pistol ammunition can be relied upon to expand and stop within the body in a center-of-mass hit.
I guess the M1 Carbine has gotten scarce: backwayback, it was considered junk by collectors looking for Garands and Krags. Too bad to hear of the demise of the Camp Rifle–perhaps you can find one used–but another alternative is a lever action Winchester in .357 Mag, or the (rather pricey) Ruger 96/44 in .44 Mangum.
Just out of curiosity, where do you plan to be travelling that you have significant worries about defense? I’m not against gun ownership by any means, and defecation does most certainly happen, but for the most part I can’t see being too worried about repeat shots, et cetera. My criteria are more along the lines of accessable, explainable (I don’t want to have to explain to a NP Ranger what I was doing with an MP-5SD on Federal property), and having reasonable stopping potential and reliability. I’ve been in a couple of scrapes where having a weapon at hand was useful, but I’ve been fortuante enough not to have to actually discharge the gun, much less shoot anyone, to end the conflict. That is most typical of defensive use of firearms, and virtually any gun larger than a “handbag gun” will fill that role. Just a thought.
Stranger
I plan to go pretty much all over. I haven’t done any research yet, but my initial impression is that some parts of the south can be somewhat combatitive. 
Seriously, I’m getting on in years and don’t have the confidence in my abilities to “grapple” that I once did. I’m no stranger to scrapes. I’ve faced knives a couple of times and done well. But that requires physical strength and agility, which are waning for me. I’m not paranoid at all, just realistic.
I don’t envision using any gun from a contorted or overly awkward position, but if I’m sitting on the couch or lying in bed, it seems that a pistol or shorter shotgun might be of some advantage. Maybe not. That’s why I’m asking. Otherwise I’d have already bought that pretty Winchester.
As it is, I might decide the risk isn’t worth the trouble and forget the whole thing. I do have my trusty Ruger 22 pistol. :eek:
I’ve very rarely heard any “shooter” on The 'Dope fail to mention backfield in self-defense situations.
As far as having a “travel gun” goes, you’re probably better off with a shotgun over a pistol for legal reasons; some states are kind of tetchy about civilians with handguns, and while you may never be pulled over and searched, you just might, and you don’t want a simple search to turn into a Seizure & Forfeiture.
For “political” reasons, I’d also recommend an unmodified, wood-stock shotgun, and leave the damned plug in! Removing that plug isn’t in-and-of-itself illegal in most states, but it is illegal for hunting purposes in more than it isn’t, and “hunting purposes” is one of the benchmarks that may get you off the hook in the less-than-gun-friendly jurisdictions if John Law find’s your shooter during a routine traffic stop, or random search. You may want to pick up some hunting literature just in case, in an CYA kinda thing.
Also be aware that a lot of state’s have different legal standards for use of deadly force in self defense. Shooting the asshole busting through your RV’s door at 2 AM in the morning may be fine and dandy in Texas, but it may get you tossed into the hoosgow for Attempted Murder somewhere else.
And don’t write off the “Sweet 16”-gauge shotgun, either. More oomph than a 20-ga., w/o the punishing recoil of the 12-ga.
Finally, be aware that many of the best places to visit whilst being a “Travelling Wilbury” are various federal and state parks, most of which prohibit firearms. Period.
At the Boy Scout camp I work at, we have a Remington 870 that by my calculations, has had over 50,000 rounds put through it over the years. Never a single problem with it. But it has also been religiously cleaned after every use. We also have a Mossberg 500 (whatever the earlier Mossberg model was that was identical to the 500) that had has about 30,000 rounds fired, and is also still chugging along fine.
If I had to choose, I’d go with the Remington over the Mossberg just because of the wider array of accessories available for it.
ExTank, I most surely overstated the disregard of shooters for the background in defense situations. Mostly what I’ve heard, here and IRL, is understatement of that potential. Saying that the likelyhood was low, etc. Even that attitude wasn’t so pervasive as I might have implied.
I have owned a Winchester 1300 and a Mossberg 500. I sold the former, but kept the Mossy. This Mossberg was purchased used for $125 and while it isn’t pretty, it is perfectly reliable. Much more so than my Winchester, which had a tendency to crimp the metal lip of the shells and thus made extraction difficult (note that this problem came about only after a couple years or so of fairly heavy abuse).
I prefer the Mossberg over an 870 due to the position of the slide release. I can depress it with my middle finger without having to remove my index finger from the trigger guard.
As for defensive ammunition, I use Federal #1 buck, as recommended here.
Remington, Winchester and Mossberg all make a perfectly good defensive shotgun in my experience. Just treat a defensive firearm as though it is the only thing standing between you and death, because some day it may be.
Went back to Big5 today and asked the clerk (manager, actually) if they had anything in 20ga in any of the three short-barreled guns on display. She went to look and returned with a Mossberg model 50178, which has both a 18 1/2 in. and a 26 in. barrel.
I liked it, so I asked her the price, and she said I could lay it away because it was slated to go on sale soon for $229 (stickered @ $299). She was so nice and helpful, and I like the gun, so I said ok. As she started to fill out the layaway form (they were extrremely busy), she asked would I be willing to pay the sale price today and save her the additional paperwork. Cool, say’s me.
I pick it up on the 19th.
Anybody wanna buy a 26" 20ga barrel?
Thanks, all. I’ll be checking out the suggested mods above.
Keep it. You never know when you might want to try a hand at shooting trap and skeet.
Stranger
Yeah, I was kidding. I shot some skeet off the fantail when in the USN. The gunner’s mate said I had a good “natural point”. Something like that, anyway.
Are skeet and trap the same thing?
Thanks for the link. A lot of good info there.
More or less- they’re both games played by shooting clay pigeons, but they have different rules, shots, starting positions, etc… There’s another similar game called “Sporting Clays” also.
No.
Trap is the oldest form, five shooters shoot five targets at five stations arranged in a semi-circle. The targets are thrown away from the shooters via an oscillating thrower, so you don’t know which target aspect you will be shooting at.
Skeet, one to many shooters, one shooter at a time with 8 stations. Targets are thrown from one high house, and one low house. On most stations, you get a high house, low house, and then pair.
5-Stand. Five shooters at five stations, multiple targets from different throwers spread across the field. Depending on which station you’re shooting, the target can have a completely different aspect when presented.
Sporting clays, the newest, invented by the Brits in the early 80’s. Most closely represents hunting shots. 100 targets per event, with up to 15 stations per event. Commonly called golf with a shotgun, shooters go from station to station throughout the course, shooting anywhere from four to 10 shots per station. Targets include bouncing rabbits, high flying geese, darting doves, etc. Since most courses are in the woods, the trees and whatnot provide obstacles encountered in real hunts.
Do you have your heart set on a pump action? If not, I think you should consider an autoloader from Winchester, Remington, FN, or HK. They give up very little, if anything, in terms of reliability to a pump action. Where they are clearly superior is that, if you should have to use it in self-defense, it eliminates the risk of “short stroking” the action. Short stroking will give you a “click” when you expect and need a “bang.”
Er, the recoil-op shotguns are significantly more likely to jam or misfeed; the Remington 11-87, for instance, although an excellent gun, is quite sensitive to the load being fired. Gas operated actions are more reliable, provided they are kept clean, but come in at around $1000 and up.
“Short-stroking” a pump gun is a matter of poor training. There is no reason anyone with sufficient strength to fire a shotgun can’t learn to correctly stroke it. Note that virtually all police departments and most security and military forces that use a shotgun opt for the pump operation due to its inherent reliability and insensitivity to ammunition.
Stranger
Keeping a shotgun clean is also a matter of training.
I get the distinct impression from the OP that mangeorge is interested in slef-defense rather than any extensive amount of recreational shooting. He also notes decreasing physical strength. All of this makes the decreased recoil and self-loading desirable. Many law enforcement agencies, including the one for which I sometimes work, are moving away from the pump actions for these reasons. It has also been noted and taken into account that pump actions may be difficult or impossible to cycle if the operator is injured.
In any case, an autoloader for self defense needs to be reliable with the chosen self defense ammo. If it will not reliably cycle everything from skeet loads to waterfowl loads to slugs, that is no more than a recreational inconvenience. Pump actions have served for over a century and they are still useful. They are not the only choice.