Hemlock hears a rumor third hand in a bar. What are his options as a friend?
Continue to spread a rumor he heard, third hand, in a most spiteful way. Speak of the preson he heard this rumor about in derogatory terms. Cover his gossip-mongering with rationalizations of how he’s “just being a good friend”.
Yeah, I’m convinced he’s not a gossip-mongering, prejudiced busybody.
Cichlidiot says - *…there’s nothing for your friend to be embarrassed about. It’s the attitudes of his friends and the other patrons of the bar that are embarrassing. *
Well, yes, in an abstract sense I agree. But I’m not about to embark on a moral crusade to try to enlighten a bar full of politically incorrect Chinese, Westerners and other Asians. And anyway, it would embarrass my friend Bob. You are right in saying my #1 priority is to spare him embarrassment. Mary can find some other guy to fool.
Jayjay is even more naive and says Maybe Bob likes this person enough that his/her sex doesn’t matter at all.. That’s OK - you don’t know Bob. He’s not a big fan of platonic relationships, let’s put it that way!
Fenris, Jayay, Jester, Drastic, Guinastasia - you all say I should have done it in person not via an anonymous email. I hear you loud and clear. I really agonized over this, to the extent that I actually started a thread on it (I’m usually pretty sure of my instincts). Yes, he will wonder who sent the email. In fact, he might suspect it was me. The email made clear that it was a one-off - the sender was a bystander who had no interest in what happened subsequently.
Major problems with doing it face-to-face…
I know these arguments might sound lame. You need to know the people and dynamics involved. In case you’re wondering, I know he will ease Mary out of the picture in a gentlemanly manner - he was born south of the Mason-Dixon line.
I do agree with Fenriss’s comments about poison pen letters. I’ve never done anything like this before and don’t want to again. But in this case, looking the other way wasn’t an option, and telling Bob in person could have been even worse.
My conscience is clear.
Um…that wasn’t quite what I was saying. Maybe I should have said that “his/her gender doesn’t matter at all.” But, regardless of whether you know Bob very well or not, I don’t know him at all, so I’ll take your word that he wouldn’t be interested if he knew Mary was not completely female yet.
Certainly I wouldn’t put 100% confidence in the story, but we are talking about the word of his friend’s wife. I normally don’t go about doubting the veracity of what my friends’ spouses say, do you?
I also don’t see Hemlock spreading rumors. Unless I missed something in the story, or you think his friend would be identifiable by someone on the SDMB, it seems the only person he wants to tell is Bob. Another reason for the wisdom of telling him face to face… Bob has no way of determining if the information in an anonymous email is accurate, but if he knew the who and the how, he could use his own best judgement.
Those who are whacking Hemlock for alleged ‘bigotry’ and ‘prejudice’: the term ladyboy is in common usage in (I am assuming here) Thailand, as well as other Asian countries, including Hong Kong. This is not bigotry. Also, it’s not bigoted to mention that Thais tend, on the whole, to be shorter than Westerners. Most Asians I have known say that, on the whole, Westerners tend to be taller (and more voluminous and sweaty) than Asians. Generally, it is true.
As for his being a “busybody” - Hemlock’s friend is being lied to. He is without doubt that the information is correct. It’s something he knows friend would be upset about. Of course he should let his friend know. I think by not letting his friend know, he’s not being a good friend. What the hell kind of friends would all of you make?
I too disagree with his method of imparting the information, but half of the shit you’re throwing at the poor chap really, really doesn’t stick.
Actually, he is taking the word of his friend, who heard it from his wife. Here’s what Lamia said on the (now closed) MPSIMS thread:
I say “yep” to all of that.
Mary should have told him already? Why? Nothing in Hemlock’s description of the situation indicates a serious, or even potentially serious, relationship here. Mary is not Bob’s girlfriend. According to Hemlock, Mary and Bob have never done more than a little kissing and snuggling when they happen to meet at a bar where they both hang out. They have apparently never so much as been out to dinner together. Bob has tried to get Mary to come home with him, but she has refused – a sign that she is not interested in taking things further than they have gone already. Why on earth should Mary be obligated to bare her soul to every guy she happens to spend a little time with at the bar?
Look everyone, I’m sorry I sort of flew off the handle. I don’t mean to say that anyone here would be a bad friend. I do understand the motivation for not telling, and I agree that it really should be Mary who speaks up.
But the side that I can’t get away from is that she seems to be deceiving him, and if I felt that my friend were in a situation where he didn’t have all the facts, I would act to amend that situation. It is unfortunate that this involes usurping Mary’s own authority to tell who she is when she feels it is approrpiate, but it takes two to tango, and her interests alone are not at stake. It isn’t like she is being fired for being transgendered, she is acting provocatively towards another person. Because of this, there aren’t just Mary’s interests involved here.
Think about similar situations. How about if Bob is going to buy a house, and you heard that it might be infested with termites. Yeah, the owner should tell Bob, and in fact this is a legal as well as a moral “should”, but are you going to respect the owner’s authority and responsibility to reveal potentially damaging information? (please note that I am not comparing a termite infestation with a hidden gender issue, but rather the analogy is meant to be about information which Bob would find damaging when he is showing interest in doing something, okay?)
My friends might tell me, but they also know that I wouldn’t care much one way or the other what physical appendages Mary has (or had). But if Hemlock estimates (or knows factually) that his friend would mind, then I still think he did the right thing.
Again, though, I am sorry for insinuating that anyone here isn’t a good friend. I didn’t really mean that, I was just upset about the hateful comments toward Hemlock when I think he acted correctly.
Any asshole that makes fun of you or laughs at you for falling for a con (again assuming your description of the situation is accurate) ain’t a friend.
Bob sounds like he’s already damned paranoid (he’s worried you’ll go off and tell other people?) How does sending him coy little “I’ve been spying on you secretly and closely enough that I’ve noticed something about the woman you’re dating that you haven’t noticed” messages somehow make him less paranoid. At least he has the limited comfort of knowing you as opposed to an anynomous stranger who could be up to anything.
Why couldn’t you have told him this way: “Hey Bob, thought you and Mary should know about a really, really ugly rumor I heard: Someone’s saying that Mary’s really a guy! I thought you and Mary should know.” That doesn’t admit that you know anything, it gives him a chance to “save face” (such as it’s necessary) by telling everyone that “things just didn’t work out” after breaking up (assumeing that’s what it does) and it ends the situation. And if Bob can’t handle even that and ends your friendship, then he’s not much a friend to you.
Lamia, Bob should be told, because in the other thread Hemlock claims “Lady boys get a huge kick out of fooling straight guys.” so, if this is to be belived, she’s doing it out of cruelty and has forfitted her right to privacy in such things. (again, for this discussion, I’m accepting Hemlock’s word that Mary’s doing leading Bob on for sport.)
And Jim and the other regulars who are enjoying this are major assholes. At least one, and maybe three people (Hemlock, Mary, and Bob) stand to be hurt pretty badly if everything explodes. I’d start looking for another bar and a higher class of friends.
Fenris
Fenris
erislover
Unless Hemlock knows as an absolute certainty that Mary hadn’t already told Bob and that Mary had no plans ever to tell Bob, then no, I don’t think it’s deceitful for a woman not to tell someone who at this point is a casual flirtation with making out that she wasn’t born a woman.
I find Hemlock’s conduct to be disgusting and bigoted. His protestations of only being concerned with his friend’s well-being ring a little hollow in light of his continued use of the term “lady boy” (which despite protestations to the contrary is a bigoted term) and his blanket generalizations about what it is that “lady boys” like to do to the minds of straight men.
Lizard, from the original thread
And that’s what it comes down to right there. Not Bob’s well-being, but Bob’s reputation. Lizard reveals his utter ignorance and bigotry by continually referring to Mary as “HE” in big capital letters, and excuses and supports his own bigotry and the bigotry of the other bar patrons by claiming that it would wreck Bob’s rep at the bar. So what? What’s more important, that Bob is enjoying himself in a casual flirtation with Mary or that a bunch of strangers think he’s odd because of it? If they or Lizard or Hemlock want to be scared little sheep afraid to do anything that the mob might disapprove of, that’s their tragedy. They shouldn’t expect other people to live in timidity just because they do.
If Hemlock really believed he was doing the right thing, he wouldn’t have felt the need to hide behind a sock puppet.
Sez who… You? On what grounds?
Lamia, I don’t think Mary should have to tell, no. But cuddling and kissing at a bar? Come on, this is obviously going to be leading a guy on. If they were just all hanging out drinking beers then hey, she feels like a woman, she looks like a woman, she is a woman. But when this woman decides to start acting sexually towards another person, then I think the fact that this woman has a penis might be information which would affect Bob’s decision to respond. As such, the question becomes, why shouldn’t he know? Clearly it is his business, if he is the target of the flirtation.
Don’t you think?
Otto, I guess we just look at flirtation differently. If they weren’t flirting around then I would agree without reservation: ain’t anyone’s business but Mary’s. But I think the second Mary chooses to involve someone else, then she makes it his business. No?
RE: Sockpuppet
I’m just going to have to solidly disagree here. If Hemlock estimates that Bob would be embarassed by this information, then the anonymous letter surely saves some embarassment. I think this is a non-issue IMO.
You don’t think thats ENOUGH?? I sure as hell think finding out the girl i’ve been “kissing and cuddling” with was a man would ruin my ENTIRE FUCKING YEAR. You know i much rather have a friend like Hemlock than one who wouldn’t tell me information like this, even if its just an uncomfirmed rumor. Keep your head up Hem, i think you did the right thing.
As a woman, I resent men who create their own definition of what a woman is. Acquiring artificial breasts and putting on make-up, a skirt, and high heels does not make you a woman. If I have my breasts removed and wear men’s clothing, do I cease to be a woman? If I put on black-face, can I claim to be Black? I’ve received my indoctrination to transgender sensitivity, and I don’t give a shit how other people play around with traditional gender roles. But someone with a penis and XY chromosomes is not a woman.
You’ve put it perfectly.
We all should make informed choices. Whether or not some of you like it, or feel it is a “fair” way to feel, some men don’t want to kiss and cuddle someone with a penis. Since Hemlock is fairly certain that his friend Bob is one of these people, Bob ought to know. And he ought to know NOW.
Mary’s apparent reluctance to tell him do not mean that he has no right not know. I’m sure Mary has delicate feelings that we all want to treat with sensitivity. The thing is, so does Bob.
I know this comes from way up on this thread, but I wanted to respond to it anyway:
One of my art teachers wrote this book on Drawing the Head. (He wrote a lot of books, BTW, and is quite esteemed in the artistic community.) In this book, he describes different characteristics of different “head types”, based on their race. (“African Woman (Congo): Long Head Type, Diagonal Facial Slope.” and “Northeastern Australia Man: Long Head Type; Moderate Facial Slope.” etc.) He discusses many “facial types” from all over the globe, and includes illustrations.
I am sure you will want this book banned, since it is obviously extremely racist. I am frankly in total amazement that such a hideously racist book is still in print, and quite popular.
I remember attending this teacher’s class, where he had a lecture discussing the differences of “facial types”. Funny, even though it was a diverse group of students, in a Politically Correct Los Angeles art school, no one accused this teacher of racism. Obviously none of us were as enlighted as you are.
I’m not sure those two sentences go together.
chula:
If Mary is actually transsexual, she’s not pretending to be a woman. She is a woman. The body parts just don’t all match up yet. And may never, depending on whether Mary has the money to get everything done.
Insensitivity to transsexuality issues doesn’t excuse ignorance. Mary is not mocking women by dressing up as one. And her breasts aren’t necessarily fake…if she’s started hormone therapy, they’re as real as any born woman’s.
Do you have issues with drag, too?
jayjay
jjimm
Oh sorry, what could I have been thinking? Of course the term is used with love by all who use it. I can tell from looking back at the original thread how much esteem the people who used it there hold for transgendered people. No insult intended or implied I’m sure.
chula
But it’s OK for you to decide who’s a woman and who isn’t, because you were born with an XX and a vagina? Are you sure, btw? Have you been tested to be certain that you’re chromosomally pure? Out of curiosity, is it all right for a man to decide what a man is?
I can see your sensitivity to transgendered people shining through your words like a beacon. It’s especially evident in the way that you reduce womanhood to tits, make-up and shoes.
No insult intended or implied indeed. Really. You haven’t listed your location in your profile, but I am assuming that you aren’t living/haven’t lived in the Asia-Pacific Rim. If you had, you would understand that the word is a) universal, and b) self-referential. I personally have met several ladyboys who refer to themselves thus, without prejudice. IIRC, it’s an Anglicization of a Thai term. The fact that you, wherever you are located, find it offensive, is irrelevant to the context in which it was used. Therefore Hemlock should not have to answer to charges of bigotry WRT this. FTR, I think that if someone wishes to be regarded as female/male, then they should be.
Here’s where I am confused:
Mary is apparently very open with being a ladyboy.
Mary goes to a bar that you frequent.
ergo, you know Mary in a casual way.
so…
WHY didn’t you talk to Mary personally?
If you are such a good friend, why didn’t you make an effort to contact Mary before sending the e-mail?
Why couldn’t you have said,“hey Mary, I have heard such and such. Now then you know Bob is my friend and I care about him.” etc.