With friends like Hemlock

The BBQ Pit
1

Regarding Hemlock’s appalling conduct:

Who the fuck are you to decide that you know what’s best for these people? Where do you get off spreading information that you don’t know to be true to the potential detriment of someone you claim is your friend? Where did you get your medical license, that you can tell a “lady boy” by sight? Probably from the same place you didn’t get your psych degree and didn’t learn anything about transgenderism.

And what a brave person you are! Not having the guts to tell your “friend” this possibly false information personally, you hide behind an anonymous email account and lie while you’re doing it.

Congratulations. Your cowardly act can only result in pain for two people whose only crime was in enjoying themselves without requiring your approval first. A charming side effect of your meddling will probably be an increase in “Bob’s” discomfort toward gay and transgendered people. I hope you feel like the shit that you are when “Bob” turns to you, his friend, for solace after he reads your email.

In other words, go fuck yourself with a rusty razor blade dildo.

2

Wow, Otto, don’t you find the idea that her act was deceitful to be plausible at all? I find that both Hemlok’s and the girl’s motiations were sound.

Furthermore, an anonymous mail might save the guy some embarassment if he didn’t know. If he did know, then what is the big deal at all?

I don’t see how this can only result in pain, though that does seem to be the most likely consequence. However, if it will end in pain from Hemlock’s act, then it would only end in more pain had Hemlock (or anyone) not done anything. No? Before you turn that venom on me, care to explain your line of thought more?

3

Ah, though I must say, upon taking another inspection of the thread that some comments were certainly, er, inappropriate. Doesn’t change my views on the matter, though.

4

Hmmm…I was wondering how long it would take before a Pit thread opened.

To answer erislover…

  • Hemlock’s “evidence” was pure hearsay. I don’t care if Mary’s best friend told him that Mary was a man, he didn’t hear it from the horse’s mouth, and he’s had no proof, which means he has no right to tell Bob.
  • if Hemlock is as good a friend of Bob’s as he says he is, then he should have the guts to tell him face-to-face
  • if he’s NOT good enough friends with Bob that he can’t say anything face-to-face, then he shouldn’t butt into the situation at all.
  • if Bob DID know and he’s okay with that, then this little e-mail is going to show him that he and Mary are the main topic of conversation at the bar, and not just that, but people have a problem with it. Would you feel it your duty to tell Bob if Mary had a steel plate in her head? Or had cancer? Or a false leg?
  • its MARY’S place to tell Bob, and no-one elses. If she’s leading him on, it will all come out in the end and she’s not going to be popular after that. Could it be that she really LIKES Bob and was just trying to find the right time to tell him? According to Hemlock, of course not, because “Lady Boys” ALWAYS like to lead people on.

And THAT last comment is the main beef I have with Hemlock. Who the fuck are you to make statements like that? You must also think that all Asian men have small dicks, all Jews are only concerned with money and all Arabians want to bomb America. Just because you may have met some transexuals/transvestites that have led people on doesn’t mean they all do. Didn’t you learn that in grade school?

5

An anonymous email was better than nothing. A face-to-face discussion would have been better, now that I think of it. Talk to this guy, maybe delicately suggesting that perhaps Mary was born a man, etc. etc.?

I think Hemlock had a pretty good idea that indeed, this lady was born a man, and hadn’t had the surgery yet. Of course he doesn’t know for 100% sure, but I guess NO ONE would know for sure unless Mary showed them her penis. I mean, she could have been lying to the wife of Hemlock’s friend, when she told her that she was born a man. And so on and so on.

It seems quite likely that the lady in question was being deceitful. There is no excuse for that, IMO.

6

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Otto *
**Regarding Hemlock’s appalling conduct:

Who the fuck are you to decide that you know what’s best for these people? **

What’s best for my friend is that he makes an informed decision.

** Where do you get off spreading information that you don’t know to be true to the potential detriment of someone you claim is your friend? Where did you get your medical license, that you can tell a “lady boy” by sight? Probably from the same place you didn’t get your psych degree and didn’t learn anything about transgenderism.**

I am satisfied beyond any reasonable doubt that Mary is a lady boy. As I said in the thread:

  • Jim’s wife would have no reason to say so unless it were true. She’s a friend of Mary’s and accepts her for what she is. It’s not a big deal among them - the hairdresser’s a lady boy.
  • I’ve lived in Asia a long time. There might be some natural-born women who look and dress like that, but not many, and definitely not in that bar. They’re probably not hairdressers, either. No medical or other qualifications needed. If I had any doubts on that score, there is no way I would have done what I did.

And what a brave person you are! Not having the guts to tell your “friend” this possibly false information personally, you hide behind an anonymous email account and lie while you’re doing it.

I want to spare him from embarrassment. It would be embarrassing for us both if I mentioned it face-to-face, plus he would probably guess that other people know. This way, there’s a chance the whole thing will be forgotten.

**Congratulations. Your cowardly act can only result in pain for two people whose only crime was in enjoying themselves without requiring your approval first. **

I think the pain would be greater if the situation continued. Everyone in the bar (it sounds like a plot for “Cheers”) would laugh behind Bob’s back more and more. And if the relationship turned sexual… Doesn’t bear thinking about.

A charming side effect of your meddling will probably be an increase in “Bob’s” discomfort toward gay and transgendered people. I hope you feel like the shit that you are when “Bob” turns to you, his friend, for solace after he reads your email.

Bob’s a grown-up. He has no discomfort towards gays/transgenders. He’s an open-minded person and sensitive toward others’ feelings. But he has a slightly hubristic approach to women, and - you could argue - this is being exploited by Mary.

I gave it a lot of thought, and a lot more thought after reading the options suggested by fellow Dopers.

I stand by what I did.

7

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Tsubaki *
Hemlock’s “evidence” was pure hearsay…

No it’s not. It’s accepted among Jim’s wife and other customers of the beauty salon. She is open about it. I would have thought there was a rule that lady boys don’t get interested in friends of friends, as it puts the friends in an awkward position. Maybe Mary will learn.

**… if Bob DID know and he’s okay with that, then this little e-mail is going to show him that he and Mary are the main topic of conversation at the bar, and not just that, but people have a problem with it. **

I know Bob, and no way is he into women without women’s genitalia. The email was carefully worded to sound as if only the writer knew. Regulars at the bar don’t have a “problem” with it - they’re splitting their sides laughing behind Bob’s back.

Would you feel it your duty to tell Bob if Mary had a steel plate in her head? Or had cancer? Or a false leg?

No, unless his ignorance of the fact was about to cause him harm.

** its MARY’S place to tell Bob, and no-one elses. If she’s leading him on, it will all come out in the end and she’s not going to be popular after that. Could it be that she really LIKES Bob and was just trying to find the right time to tell him? According to Hemlock, of course not, because “Lady Boys” ALWAYS like to lead people on.**

Sorry if that remark was a bit flippant, but lady boys do have a big reputation here for “trying out” their femininity on unsuspecting guys. There are, I believe, some people who are into lady boys, but most guys are not. Lady boys know that.

And THAT last comment is the main beef I have with Hemlock. Who the fuck are you to make statements like that? You must also think that all Asian men have small dicks, all Jews are only concerned with money and all Arabians want to bomb America.

Nope.

** Just because you may have met some transexuals/transvestites that have led people on doesn’t mean they all do. Didn’t you learn that in grade school? **

As I say, lady boys have a reputation for this. That’s why everyone in the bar is laughing. They didn’t teach us much about these things in my (Catholic) grade school.

I must say that the arguments put forward by Otto and Tsubaki leave me more convinced that I have done the right thing.

8

You were way fucking out of line, pal. Mind your own fucking business, asshole.

Esprix

9

Sorry, Otto. I quit reading the asshole’s tro…er, post after “[…]tall for her race.”

I think you know my take on bigotry already.

Oh, and Hemlock: either pull your head out of your ass or shove it in deeper.

10

OK, Esprix and Monty. If you saw a friend of yours humiliating himself, you would sit back and do nothing, would you? If you saw a friend of yours being cheated, you would say “none of my business” would you? I’m glad I don’t have friends like that.

Perhaps the normal rules don’t apply. Mary is a member of an ethnic minority (where you guys live) and a member of a sexual minority. So she’s blameless, pure as driven snow, right? If she was a white, straight guy cheating a non-white sexual minority, you’d be all over her/him, I bet. In which case, you’re hypocrites.

Esprix - reasons, please, for your comments? Or is “You were way fucking out of line, pal. Mind your own fucking business, asshole.” the best you can do? I know this is the Pit, but you are allowed to talk intelligently.

Monty - the average height among some ethnic groups is much higher than among others. An adult member of the Epulu people of Zaire is 4’6" to 4’9". Over in Kenya there are people who average 5’10"-6’. No bigotry is involved in noting these facts. Mary - close on 6’, I guess - comes from a place where 5’6" is above average height for a woman. Other than my theoretically cavalier use of the word “race”, what’s your problem?

If you two - who talk more sense than most people on this board - can’t come up with anything better that this, I’m more convinced than ever that I have done the right thing. And I can’t help thinking you should ask yourself “what friends are for”.

11

What I hear you saying is that you are saving him from being humiliated. I also hear that people are laughing at him, with him unaware. What I think you are missing, is that when it boils down to it, there’s nothing for your friend to be embarrassed about. It’s the attitudes of his friends and the other patrons of the bar that are embarrassing.

It seems that you are saying that Mary is deceitful, because as far as you know, she hasn’t told your friend in the amount of time you deemed appropriate. I don’t see how this is up to you to make this decision for her. Was he in serious harms way? This is what I don’t get. You said in this thread that your friend is a grown man, I bet he can deal with people (shallow people IMO) laughing at him.

Since your knowledge of Mary is second-hand, I don’t see how you drew the conclusion that she is purposefully deceitful. Even if the sole purpose of “lady-boys” was to fool poor straight men the majority of the time, I don’t see how you had enough information about this particular person to make that call.

By placing so much emphasis on this grown man’s possible embarrassment, and upon insulting Mary and others like her, I have a hard time agreeing with your motives. By ignoring the possibility that something positive might have come out of this, I see you as having had a major hand in preventing just that.

12

It was none of your fucking business. You are a gossip-mongering twit. You are a prejudiced asswipe.

Just my opinion.

13

Let’s pretend that Hemlock that all of Hemlock’s assumptions/statements are completely accurate:

Hemlock does know for a fact that Mary is a “lady-boy”(? “lady-boy”?! :rolleyes: Nice to see he’s an unbiased source)
Hemlock does know that she’s doing this for the thrill of decieving Bob.
Hemlock does know that Bob doesn’t know and would be hurt by this.

Fine. Given all those assumptions (which I don’t believe, btw, but for the sake of argument), he does have a duty to tell Bob, as Mary’s perpetrating a fraud.

However, there’s still no excuse for the cowardly, anonymous poison-pen letter.

There are only two rational responses from Bob:

  1. Think " :rolleyes: Who is this asshole and why is he or she saying such terrible things about Mary?" and delete it.

or

  1. Assuming he does believe it, he’ll go completely paranoid wondering who sent it, who knows him well enough to know his entire situation, but won’t tell him to his face? What possible motive could the letter sender have? Why have they been watching him so closely? Congratulations: You’ve just traded a little (possible) embarassment for a lot of paranoia.

The correct thing to do would have been (again, assuming all three points at the beginning are true) to privately pull Bob aside and say “Hey. I don’t know if you’re aware of this, and I certainly haven’t shared this with anyone else, but I needed to let you know that Mary’s a…etc” and then butt the hell out. Once informed he can make his own decisions. Which, by the way, might surprise you.

Hint: don’t use the term “lady-boy” when talking to Bob. It won’t help. Trust me on this.

Sending poison-pen letters is NEVER a solution.

Fenris

14

What kind of fucking friends are you people? I admit it should be Mary who speaks up, but she should have spoke up already. To do otherwise is to be deceitful. How could it be otherwise? Can someone please explain how Mary is the pinacle of integrity here?

I tell you what, I appreciate the advice my friends give me: they often have a persective I do not. I find this case to be no different.

Now I’m not saying this is a perfect situation, because Mary should tell the tale of her tail when she is good and ready. In a perfect world it would not bother Hemlock’s friend, if he was uninterested he would simply say, “Well, golly, Mary—I understand perfectly why you kept the truth hidden from me for all this time, but unfortunately I am simply not interested in you after hearing this. Can we still be friends?” But in the perfect world Mary would have already spoke up by now.

So since its resolved that this isn’t a perfect world, I think Hemlock has done the right thing. Isn’t any of his business? When a friend of mine is being lied to, I make it my fucking business. The end. If I can’t expect my friends to tell me information that they think I would find damaging, then what the hell can I count on them for?

15

eris:

You and Hemlock both assume that Bob doesn’t already know.

Neither of you (not even Hemlock) knows this, but you assume it. Hemlock says that he knows Bob well enough to know that he wouldn’t be interested if he did know. But if he knows him that well, he should have been able to tell him to his face rather than sending an anonymous note.

Sometimes people surprise you. Maybe Bob likes this person enough that his/her sex doesn’t matter at all. It happens. And personally, I find the idea of my so-called “friends” laughing uproariously over a situation that they don’t understand in the least to be something I’d worry about for, oh, 5 seconds.

In the absence of certainty, mouths should be set on “closed”…

jayjay

16

If one of my close friends had such knowledge about someone I was interested in, I would feel extremely betrayed if they didn’t let me know.

Maybe not by an anonymous letter, but… My business is my friends’ business and the other way around, too.

17

Here’s the problem, eris: as far as Bob knows, the advice wasn’t offered by a friend. All Bob knows is that some random person “knows” that his girlfriend is really a man. There is no reason for Bob to assume that this person is his friend; if anything, the fact that it’s an annonymous e-mail is reason for him to believe that it’s not a friend. This is because friends would have the balls to tell him to his face, and talk to him about it.
All that e-mail has done is tell Bob that some random yutz, and probably a lot of other people, might know that his girlfriend might be a woman, and might be laughing their asses off at him. It resolves nothing, and only makes Bob feel like shit. After all, how can he confirm this knowledge? It’s a bit hard to just insert the phrase “Are you really a man?” into casual conversation with your girlfriend.

18

Good: telling a friend that you’re concerned for them, and why. Trusting in the strength of your friendship to carry through any potential embarassment, either to the friend or to oneself (as in the “I know that already, and I don’t care” scenario).

Bad: doing so in an anonymously cowardly fashion. If you don’t trust a friendship’s strength, it ain’t much of a friendship to begin with.

19

Telling Bob=right
Doing so anonymously=wrong
I think he has a right to know, but you should at least have the balls to tell him so to his face.

20

I think there’s plenty of latitude to disagree with Hemlock; but a pit thread? Keep his actions separate from the race, gender, and sexual orientation issues. Perhaps there is more cause to question his attitudes on the latter, but the OP is specific in taking him to task for interfering in his friend’s relationship.

Boiling the story down to its simplest constituents, it’s simply a tale of a guy having pretty good information that his friend’s apparent new love interest is not being truthful with him. Does he step in? I suppose it depends on many things, which is probably why he was asking for advice.

Have a suspicion that Hemlock is prejudiced? shrug I have a mild suspicion as well, though I certainly don’t think I have enough evidence to call him onto the carpet for it. Disagree with the anonymous letter? Yep. Me too. But I see no reason to accuse him of trying to decide he knows what is best for his friend.