What?! Here’s a lesson to learn: people can’t be trusted. Including my so-called friends who wouldn’t tell me what I was walking into.
No one owes Mary anything more than they would owe anyone anything. This isn’t “outing” Mary, this is telling Bob that he isn’t doing what he would want to do if he knew facts which Hemlock knows. That this happens to out Mary is unfortunate, but she is just some bar girl and Bob is a friend.
:rolleyes: Well, now that the blame is clear we can all rest easy. “Hey, Bob, it wasn’t my fault. They shouldn’t be laughing at you.” That’s some Bactine there.
I’m not blaming Mary. I’m blaming anyone who knew Bob was doing something he shouldn’t be doing by his own standards and yet did nothing. Luckily, Hemlock is not in that crowd.
EXACTLY! All Hemlock is going on is hearsay, no matter WHERE he heard it from, and no matter how reliable he feels the source to be. THAT’S the crux of the problem.
I don’t have time for a complete response, but let me make one point.
Wrong. This is basic logic. If A, then B. The contrapositive is true: If not B, then not A. The converse (If B, then A) and inverse (If not A, then not B) are not necessarily true. Thus:
If Mary has a penis, then he is a man.
If Mary is a woman, then she does not have a penis.
If Mary is a man, he probably has a penis.
If Mary doesn’t have a penis, she probably is a woman.
It’s one thing to call him a “woman,” but to claim that there is sexually no difference between him and a natural-born, penisless, vagina-havin’, capable-of-conceiving-human-life woman, is utterly absurd. Do you really think there is something wrong with Bob for being aroused by vaginas and not penises?
“bigot/prejudiced/racist/etc”. I have friends of all ages, genders, sexual orientations, religions, blah, blah, so don’t give me that. Monty is presumably suffering the after-effects of a surfeit of Easter eggs if he imagines that Mary’s height is irrelevant. As a guy, Mary would be a valued member of any Filipino basketball team (she’s not Thai as it happens). As a Filipina, she towers over 99 or more % of her female compatriots. Even out of her high heels, she must be 5’11".
As jjimm and others say, the phrase “ladyboy” is in common use here and is not an insult. Ask this guy (to whom I’ve sent the URL for this thread - I’d like to hear her views). I’m not one of those who employ ever-sweeter euphemisms - I call people who can’t see “blind”. I don’t find plain English embarrassing or offensive. Sorry.
“gossip/rumor-mongering/hearsay”. As I said before, if I had any doubts about Mary’s status, I would not have done what I did. No real woman would dress like this unless she was meeting the Queen. Virtually no Filipina is that tall. She’s never without a choker (to hide the adam’s apple). Her buddies say “yeah, she’s bak la*” and shrug it off. etc, etc. Mary is.
[*the phrase seems to mean either gay or transexual in Filipino]
MrO did a survey of 5 colleagues, all of whom would want to be alerted if they fell for a lady boy, and I’m not surprised. I seriously can’t imagine any straight guy not wanting to be told.
Could you do us all a great favour and pay attention to what people are saying when they say it?
You are certainly, if not intentionally, missing the point. I said that I don’t read those books based on MY issue with a particular disability. I didn’t say jack about other people not reading or writing them.
I would imagine it does it in a descriptive but non-prejudicial manner. Perhaps along the lines of, “In the remote mountainous areas of Vietnam, there are groups of people with the following features […]”
It does not stand to reason. It does not follow. And, if your parsing skills are that poor to believe it does follow, then educating you is a waste of time and effort.
NO, ASSHOLE, IT IS NOT!
Sheesh. Consider that the artist/author is discussing how to draw someone and thus describes certain INDIVIDUAL traits. That artist might also indicate that, AMONG A GROUP OF PEOPLE, these individual traits are widespread.
Now, this might be hard for you since you evidently don’t have a freaking working mind, try to consider the situation in a bar. Now consider that someone is saying, “That chick’s tall. She must really be a guy!” The 2nd doesn’t follow from the 1st. But, since you’ve already proven that’s the way what you erroneously refer to you as your mind works, the distinction more likely than not is lost on you.
ASSHOLE! Where did I even suggest banning books? I said that I quit reading a person’s commentary after I saw the “for her race” comment.
Addressed and explained already, fool.
You know, gobear, this is why I like having disagreements with you whenever we do: you make sense. Yosemite’s just an asshole.
One more thing - * Why haven’t I spoken to Mary?* A non-starter. She’s not a friend of mine, and I am 99% sure she would react extremely negatively. Can’t even imagine what I’d say.
Monty - why don’t you let this go? You’re clogging up good bandwidth with this obsession. Some races/ethnic groups/nationalities - whatever phrase you wish - have particular physical traits. They really do.
Most of you know me as one of the biggest liberal do gooders around, but I have to say, if I found out a guy I was dating was actually a woman, I think I’d be upset.
Wow. The way you describe her, I think Bob is a dense boy for not figuring out Mary’s secret. The height, plus the choker would make alarm bells go off for me.
But, you know, some people just aren’t that observant, and/or are naive. You know Bob better than the rest of us. If you (and the rest of the bar) are convinced he hasn’t figured it out, I’ll accept that he probably hasn’t figured it out.
But, if he already knows, not much harm is done. Just an email telling him the obvious. But if he doesn’t know, it’s only fair that he know.
I get the impression that some of you don’t think Bob (or many others) have the “right” to feel as intense a reaction of hurt, betrayal, or mortification that they would if we were put in such a situation. But the fact is, they would. You don’t have to accept it, but you cannot act as if the feelings have no merit, or don’t exist, just because you don’t share them.
So, to sit by and see a friend be set up for such embarassment and pain, and act as if “Well, they shouldn’t feel that strongly about it, so I won’t do anything.” is absurd.
If Bob is the Southern Gentleman that Hemlock describes him to be, he will be gracious, discreet and tactful, if indeed he decides to conclude the relationship (which I guess we all all assuming, but hey! You never know! ). Hopefully, he may never even let her know that she’s been “outed”.
I think the disappointment Mary may feel (if indeed she had serious feelings for Bob) would be more upsetting if he had found out about her penis in a more intimate moment, and broke it off with her at that time. He might not be able to prepare himself, and be as gracious with her under such circumstances. This way, he can ease himself out of it (if he decides that’s what he wants to do) and it’s all relatively pain-free and not too messy.
And then Mary can go on to enchant someone else, who hopefully will know of her secret, and be OK with it. And Bob will learn to be more observant about lovely ladies who always wear chokers!
sorry, yosemitebabe, but I have to pick a nit-Queen Alexandra, the consort of Edward VII, ALWAYS wore chokers-she had a scar on her neck as the result of a childhood injury, and thus she was the one who started the late Victorian fad for dog-collar-like chokers. Perhaps sometimes a gal has a scar on her neck (I used to be notorious for accidentally burning my neck with curling irons).
However, keep in mind this-maybe Bob would be more upset about the fact that Mary lied to him, than the actual reason.
But there is room for doubt at this point in time. Observe…
Unless she liked elaborate clothes, and thought they made her look pretty.
Ah ah, there’s that word, virtually. In this case, it means almost. Meaning that there are Filipina women that tall in the world. Meaning that guess what, she could be one.
Because, of course, the choker has the words “Adam’s apple be-gone” emblazoned on it. Please. I know numerous girls who wear chokers as a matter of fashion.
Which “buddies” are we talking about? Have Jim’s wife? The guys in the bar, who might just want to say it because it makes for a good story if Bob is hooking up with her? Have you asked any of her very good friends, point blank, whether she is? Because it sure doesn’t look like you, personally, have.
Unless, of course, she isn’t.
Look, Hemlock, from what you’ve said, I can see why you’re almost totally sure. Hell, I’m inclined to agree with you based on the evidence you’ve provided. But in a situation as volatile as this, with the potential to hurt so many people, you owed it to both Mary and Bob to find the real, absolute, undeniable truth. And that means getting it straight from the horse’s mouth. If you’re so sure that she’s a trans-gender, and she’s so open and honest about it (after all, she tells people whose hair she’s dressing on a regular basis), then why couldn’t you walk up to her and say “Mary, as Bob’s friend I really don’t want him to get hurt, and there’s this vicious rumor going around…”
Instead, you chose to go off of third-hand gossip, and if you’re wrong, you’ve screwed up not only a budding reputation, but possibly Bob’s dignity. And no matter how slim the chance may be that you are wrong, losing that much when it could have been so easily avoided is just stupid.
(And a side note, isn’t it possible that Mary has had the “full” operation since telling Jim’s wife about it? In which case, she is a fully functioning female in a sexual sense, meaning that at that point it really is her decision about whether to tell Bob or not, since there’s no real way for Bob to tell if he’s missed so many “obvious” cues already. Just some food for thought.)
On preview I see this:
But she’s involved with your friend. Meaning that, if you feel as loyal to Bob as you say you do, you should have had the guts to go up her and ask her. Like you said, she’s apparently open about it to everybody, so why would she react badly? You could have made it clear you were doing it out of interest to Bob, and made sure to let her known that it is a popular rumor going around, and you weren’t just randomly asking her. She might appreciate the “heads-up.”
I don’t like Hemlock because he stole half of my name and fucked up all my vanity searches. I shake my fist at him for the injustice he has caused me. :mad:
Honey, your “disability” has nothing to do with color-blindness! :rolleyes:
And, pray tell, how is that different from someone noticing that a certain individual (in this case, Mary) is “tall for a female of her race”? I have heard similar things uttered in art class.
Hemlock used many visual “cues” (among them, the height of Mary) to make him wonder about Mary. So what?
I encounted a similar situation (well, sort of) recently. I was doing some portrait sketches for my art site, and wanted some “diversity” (I was sick of drawing white people). I sketched (from my imagination) people from other ethnice backgrounds, and showed them to a friend, who told me that they didn’t look “[insert ethnic origin here] enough”. How did my friend figure this out? He said, “Hey, that drawing looks like…[fill in ethnic origin] except that they don’t have enough [fill in feature].” He made a judgment, by just looking at the drawings. Not unlike the judgment that Hemlock made when seeing Mary. Artists do it ALL the time. So does everyone else.
Honey, right back at ya.
Hmm. I don’t recall ever calling you an “asshole”. As heated as this discussion is getting, and even though this is the Pit, I see no need for such insults. Obviously you are far more overwrought than I am. Pull yourself together, honey.
BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT HE SAID Please copy and paste the exact place where he wrote “That chick’s tall, she must really be a guy!”
Hemlock used many visual cues to discern that perhaps Mary might have been born a man. The other information he received helped cement this impression. If he had based his assumption on Mary’s height alone, that would have been wrong. BUT HE DIDN’T DO THAT.
What the HELL is your problem? Can you not grasp sarcasm? Good grief. Take a chill pill, honey.
“For her RACE” is relevant. Just like it is relevant in my drawing books. When someone has an unusual trait FOR THEIR RACE (and/or gender, or age, or planet of origin) you may NOTICE it, and, coupled with other things you may observe, sometimes come to certain suspicions or conclusions. NOT about their character, but (perhaps) about their ethnic heritage, or yeah, EVEN THEIR SEX. That’s how it all ties in. I know it is useless to try to explain this to you, since you are already so overwrought, but here it is again, all in black and white.
Perhaps you’ve never had to discuss such issues, (since you’re color blind and are not an artist :rolleyes: ) but I have. And many of my fellow artists have. No racism involved, just observation about individual physical features. YOU seem to be the only one that wants to make something ugly out of it all.
Guin: point taken. I grant you that some women may wear chokers all the time - but the thing is, when was the last time you met a woman who always wore one? It is another one of those unusual visual cues that makes one wonder.
You can of course pull the quote where I made any such claim, right?
You can of course offer the textual support of where I said this too.
My issue with you has nothing to do with whether Mary’s a man, a woman, a transgenered person or was born with a Barbie-doll crotch. My issue with you is over your apparent inability to look beyond biological construction of gender while all the while piously bleating about your "indocrination into transgender sensitivity, and your claiming to be a feminist while you piss on someone for identifying as a woman.
So you didn’t read any further. That explains it all. How the hell do you know what else was said and clarified if you didn’t even read the damned thing? This explains why you seem to be the sole person obsessed about this particular issue. Everybody else at least read the entire post.
If I had a quarter for everytime I have heard someone start a sentence with, “Believe me, I know [blank] and they would never…”
*My child could never be gay.
My SO would never cheat on me.
My parent has never tried drugs.
I could never catch a disease.
Bush will never be President.*
Get my drift? Don’t ever, ever, ever, EVER, I mean NEVER assume you know what’s in the heart, mind or soul of another human being.
You have done your friend an appalling disservice. Not only did you not give him the basic respect of being able to make his own decisions, but you also treated him as if he’s a fool by sending him an anonymous email. How in the world can you justify that? Your intentions may have been the brightest and shiniest, but we all know where those lead. I’m simply stunned that not only did you assume to know what your friend jacks off to when he’s alone, but you could not even be man enough to ask him face to face. If you’re THAT SURE that he would not be interested in this woman because the plumbing might not be what you consider correct, then step up to the plate and ask him like an adult. Communication is there for a reason. Stop stuffing food in your food-hole for a minute and use that thing for something productive.
I have been a woman my whole life and I can say with the utmost conviction that you, sir, are no gentleman.
Thank you. Oh my gosh. You absolutely made my day. What a great belly laugh you gave me with that one.
Once again, thanks. Honey.
I am assuming you’re kidding. (I mean, really - after all you called me? And “Honey” is too much for your delicate sensibilities to bear? Give me a break! :rolleyes: ) But if not, I have two words.
). Hopefully, he may never even let her know that she’s been “outed”.