What doesn’t add up in Hemlock’s story??
Lamia says of Mary - She’s become the subject of gossip and rumors…she has at the very least been deprived of her right to disclose her private information as she sees fit. Perhaps most importantly, she has had someone who by his own account hardly knows her decide to start meddling in her personal affairs.
She is not the subject of “gossip and rumors”. People are talking about Bob, rather than her, and that’s not my doing. Since she is open about herself in front of her female friends, I’m not divulging a secret. I’m letting Bob know as discreetly as possible, something he should know to spare him embarrassment.
wring says - there’s a boat load of difference between getting ‘information’ from a known and trusted source, and getting an anonymous message.
This is really the bit I agonized over once it occurred to me that I would want to be told if I were Bob. Problem is, if he knows Hemlock knows, he will know other people know. and he will ask why they didn’t tell him earlier. If he were thicker-skinned he could just shrug it off, but he’s likely to find other people’s knowledge of it humiliating, to the extent he’d possibly never talk to some people again. The anon email made it clear the sender had zero further interest in the issue.
istara - I actually have some sympathy for Mary. She’s not being malicious here (people who got that impression are wrong). She’s doing what comes naturally. Being what she is, she has little choice but to be deceitful. Remember it was Bob who came onto her originally. If I thought Mary would be seriously harmed, I wouldn’t have done this. Bob will be extremely nice about it. I guess she will learn not to get friendly with friends of friends.
yosemitebabe says - *And, I think TruthSeeker brings up some very good points. It seems unlikely that Mary has kept her status a deep secret from most people. Just Bob. And now that Bob knows, who is he going to tell? NO ONE. I see a status-quo here, except that Bob (finally) knows something he should have known in the first place. *
I agree 100%
wring says - *So, let’s think about it, Bob gets the anonymous email and blows it off as sour grapes from some one too cowardly to say anything to his face. *
When he reads the email he will instantly realize his predicament - it will click: her height, looks, interest in him, reluctance to go to his place.
*Of course, all we have is Hemlock’s assertion the guy is exclusively heterosexual and will always be. Neither is a ‘given’ to me. *
I’d be surprised, but if he were non-hetero, he wouldn’t show it in the bar.
Speaking of which - I’ll drop in there Thursday evening (Friday’s a hoiday here). So stay tuned.
Damn, chula, how you doin’? 
It has become clear to me from reading this thread that there is no middle ground to be had on this issue. When two groups of people hold fundamentally opposed world views, no amount of arguing is going to achieve anything.
With that in mind, I bid this thread adieu.
Great topic for Great Debates. No, really. Or, just do a poll at IMHO. Ask people what the “cut off” point will be, and get all the different opinions.
I am not sure what my “cut off” point would be - but I do believe that of fake teeth, fake boobs, fake hair, glass eyeballs, martian antennae, (or whatever) carry completely different dynamics than the presence of unexpected genitalia.
But, if you would like, I could start a poll and ask if the Teeming Millions about it. My suspicion would be that yes, an unexpected penis (or vagina) in a potential romantic interest would almost universally be considered be a major big deal, and something they’d definitely want to know about, every time. The level of “big deal” for these other things would vary from person to person, and whould probably be considered by most to be in a different category altogether. Many people would probably consider such things as comparatively minor (compared to an unexpected penis, anyway!).
I don’t think that one must decide what the “cut off” point would be in these other things in order to know that an unexpected penis WOULD be considered a big deal that they’d want to know about, EVERY TIME.
And the bottom line is, this thread is about Mary, who has an undisclosed penis.
I’m seeing the phrase “cut off point” and the phrase “unexpected penis” and hmmmm…
But yeah, yosemitebabe, I am with you all the way on this. A woman with fake breasts is a woman. A bald woman with a lovely blonde wig is a woman. A human with a natural penis and no natural vagina is a man.
I can’t help getting the impression that some pretty OTT political correctness is prompting much of the opinion in this thread, given that Mary is part of a “controversial” minority. I don’t mean that as a negative comment on her/him, but it’s a fact that transgenderism in terms of sex-change/being publicly known/accepted is a new, and certainly controversial issue that provokes strong feelings against it, as well as an equally spirited defence.
But this is not about Mary’s rights to change Mary’s gender, or what gender Mary should associate with, or transgenderist rights, or standing up for minorities. This is about the right of Bob not to be deceived into a gender orientation that he does not associate with. And why should he?
If Hemlock is right and Bob is a heterosexual man, there’s nothing wrong in him wanting a “natural” woman or being repulsed by the prospect of being with a man. Mary is a biological and physical man with a penis (until such a time as doctors completely ignore external physical genitalia at birth and issue birth certificates only after hormonal/chromosonal tests etc).
If Bob is perhaps open enough to the prospect of a relationship with a transgendered partner, then that’s good news for both him and Mary. However Mary’s extended deception is not likely to increase the chances of any future successful relationship with Bob.
Exactly!
FTR I think she is a woman, but I agree: that isn’t the issue here.
As an aside, the conduct Hemlock admits having engaged in is illegal in the state of California.
Could you elaborate, Kelly?
Bullshit.
The minute a man does not conform to the societal norms of what is considered masculine, they are shunned and are a lesser member of the patriarchy.
When said man realizes that they have status and power based on their gender and refuse to use it as well as refusing to conform, they are no longer a part of the patriarchy.
Any woman who claims to not know what it is to survive in a racist society has blinders, in my NOT so humble opinon.
With the clear and present danger of rape, assault, and prejudice against women that exists in different levels through out the world, to not acknowledge the threat and realize your gender is perjured by the oppressor is foolish at best.
The male race is at war with the female race.
I know what it is to suffer under the patriarchy. I know what it is to be perjured by those in power because one does not conform and do what is expected.
The only difference between my experience as a gay man and yours as a woman, is that I do have the choice to go into stealth mode and reassume my male privelidge, you do not.
BUT… by your narrow minded statements, claiming to know what a man is and what a woman is… reducing it to periods, organs, and naughty bits… you support the patriarchy by spouting their hegemonic dogma.
There are many ways to be a man, and there are many ways to be a woman. Your way is not everyone’s way, and you don’t have the right to invalidate someone else’s identity because you disagree with it.
chula
Wow, for someone being so condescending you really ought to try not to contradict yourself in the space of two sentences. First you say that the premises with which I disagree aren’t premises, then you say that one of them is.
Do me a favor. Don’t ever say again that you have any idea about being sensitive or aware of the issues faced by transgendered people, because you obviously don’t have a fucking clue about it rattling around that big empty head of yours. It disgusts and shames me that you think that you’re actually a feminist with the evil prejudice toward some women that you harbor in your heart. Why don’t you go join Hemlock on the other end of that dildo?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Otto *
**
This is not correct logic. It does not follow from “If x has a penis, then x is a man” that “if does not have a penis, then x is not a man.”
To see the fallacy of such an inference, note that “if x is a crow, then x is black” does not imply that “if x is not a crow, then x is not black”. Though the first statement is true*, the second is not, for there are things that are not crows, and yet are black.
So in addition to rape, assault, and prejudice, women are in constant danger of being lied to while under oath? I am intrigued by your ideas and with to prescribe to your newsletter.
Race in its common definition is a difficult enough concept; now gender = race? Tell us more about this race war [/Helter Skelter]
Otto,
I don’t know if you read the email I sent you prior to deleting it; however, here’s the gist of it:
I know I’ve been less than polite to a couple of posters in this thread. I think they’re deciding on their own prejudices how someone else should live their life and then acting on those prejudices (and rumours) to “help” that person avoid living their own life. Of course, they’re “doing this for their own good.”
Now, in the past, Otto and I have, shall we say, had words on the issue of so-called non-traditional sexuality.
What I had said in the e-mail was that I have come around to Otto’s way of thinking about the issue.
p.s. Please consider this my apology to all whom I’ve offended and/or insulted in this thread.
Well, all very fascinating, these posts.
As it happens I have just come back from the bar where Bob has turned up with the girlfriend he had before Mary the ladyboy arrived on the scene. He was very glad to see me (first time in a week), and we discussed “Godel, Escher, Bach” - a book he has lent me and I am reading. (That deserves another thread.)
After a while, when no-one is around, he asks me very casually if I have given his email address to anyone. Big pause. I ask him if he has received an email. He says yes. I ask “was it a useful email? Did you appreciate receiving it?” (In a roundabout way.) He nods. I say “Fine. forget it”. We shrug.
Which is what I expected. Someone had to tell him.
To all those people who said I was wrong: yes, in theory, I agree. But you don’t know the people involved, and I do.
OK. Case closed.
It’s been fascinating reading this thread.
I still stand that you should have spoken with Mary first, but that is neither here nor there now.
But now what I am finding annoying is this:
well geesh Hemlock , if that is how you feel, then why did you even bother posting this in the original thread:
Apparently nothing anyone would have said contrary to your opinion would have mattered anyway, seeing as how none of us really know the people involved anyway.
Monty, I pretty much delete all email sent from addresses I don’t recognize on the theory that they are spam, so if I deleted yours thusly I apologize. If you resend it with something in the subject header indicating it’s from you, I will certainly read it. Since I don’t remember any words we’ve had in the past on this or similar topics, consider them, literally, forgotten.
Originally posted by Hemlock
As it happens I have just come back from the bar where Bob has turned up with the girlfriend he had before Mary the ladyboy arrived on the scene…
I ask “was it a useful email? Did you appreciate receiving it?” (In a roundabout way.) He nods. I say “Fine. forget it”. We shrug.
[/quote]
And now there’s one more person with an excuse to snicker at Mary behind her back. I hope you and your barmates are all proud of yourselves.
Absolutely - Mary. Pity you decided to butt in yourself.
Well, everyone except Mary, but that doesn’t seem to matter much now. (Yeah, yeah, beating a dead horse, but at least we got this much out of you.)
Esprix
Good theory. I like it.
No need. I should’ve thought about a more informative subject line for the thing.
No need. I really should’ve made the apology above on the board first anyway.
You’re all right. Thanks.
So Bob knows it was you who sent the e-mail; is that what you’re saying? Congratulations: you’ve lost a friend.
**
What do you mean by that?