I’ve never heard anyone say this.
No, just not worth my time. Anyone that believes that the parties and feminists that you’ve described exist, will not be dissuaded. I might as well try to convince a Flat-Earther.
Are we talking rape or sexual abuse? I thought the topic was sexual abuse which is a MUCH broader continuum of behavior.
The party was a hypothetical, a thought experiment to prove a point. And I see no reason to consider it impossible; did you think that all prostitutes chose their job?
And do you actually think feminists are immune to extremism? They are superior beings?
Well, I don’t think it’s either to be honest. But are people saying that is sexual abuse?
I wasn’t talking about intent as a mental state required for a crime to occur. I was talking about drawing a distinction between two actual sexual assaults based on what motivated them, and counting the person responsible as either guilty or not guilty of actual sexual assault based on those subjective factors. If a rape occurred, there is a rapist. You’re talking about a situation where one person does nothing wrong, and somebody else does something wrong, and pointing at the first guy saying “he’s not a rapist.” Well, yeah; he’s not the guilty party. He isn’t the one who forced her to have sex under threat of violence. So I’m not really sure what you’re arguing in the context of this discussion. He shouldn’t be counted as a person who committed a sexual assault because he didn’t, not because he didn’t feel like a rapist while it was happening.
I’m an extreme feminist. You are incorrect.
I rather doubt you qualify. Given that you are denying that extreme feminists say things that I’ve actually read from them, I expect you are a feminist who tells yourself how daring and extremely feminist you are while carefully pretending the real extremists do not and never did exist. Or you are using the No True Scotsman Fallacy to declare that No True Feminist would talk like that.
And even if you do qualify, it isn’t like they all agree with each other.
What’s your point?
Point? I was replying to Jimmy Chitwood’s claim I was incorrect. There’s no point beyond that.
Well, I think a guy brushing up against a woman to cop a feel is sexual abuse. He has touched her for his own pleasure without her permission. You thing that date rape is just as bad as violent stranger rape.
I was recently told by my son’s principal that pantsing another kid is officially sexual harassment by school policy - i.e. a form of sexual abuse. Compared to stranger rape, its way down on whatever scale exists.
Hey, thanks for taking the ONE thing in my post that was allegorical to discuss.
As for providing an example, well, I can’t. I’m posting from work right now, and I’d rather not have the network guys see me googling up a bunch of questionable topics.
But the fact that the idea is perpetuated that there are people (usually identified as radical feminsists) are out there is something to dwell on. IF you absolutely will require me to dig up some cites on women who are on record as stating that any sexual advance by a male that is not invited is potentially abuse, I will do so when I get home. I am certain they are out there, just as I am certain they are the fringe element.
You should have included handshaking.
Good one, ACM.
I can certify that remarks which are viewed neutrally or favorably in Spain are considered sexual harassment in the US; the definitions are far from universal.
Wait, you don’t think date rape is “just as bad as violent stranger rape”?
So there are “good” rapes and “bad” rapes? If I know your name then it’s a good rape? If you are related to me then it’s a good rape?
No, that isn’t what I’m saying. From the perspective of the person who was raped, its an individual reaction - what one person reacts to strongly may not be what another person reacts to strongly. One woman may find the betrayal of trust in a date rape horrifying, the other may think that a stranger breaking into her home a far scarier scenario.
What I’m saying is that in the mind of someone who sexually abuses - particularly your stereotypical “date rapist” - he doesn’t see himself as a rapist. HE thinks he isn’t as bad as a stranger. He’s “simply” misinterpreting signals sent by his date. Of course “good girls say no, but they don’t mean it.” The problem being is that sometimes he is right, the sex is in fact consentual although she’s continued to weakly protest - she’s paying lip service to some sort of “I’m not the sort of girl who…”. And sometimes is is horrifyingly wrong.
A guy who pushes against you on purpose when you are working through a crowd in a bar to get to the bathroom does not see himself as someone who has committed sexual assault. But when that drunk someone pushes into you, leer on his face you’ve been assaulted.
There is a book - probably written 25 years ago, called “Transforming a Rape Culture.” There are a couple of essays and articles in it that speak to this. Its the disconnect between “we aren’t going to consider sex that you regret as rape” and “hey, I was regretting going into the damn room with you when it happened! The fact that I didn’t choose to turn it violent doesn’t imply consent.”
It’s the grey area that really makes it tricky. I don’t know if I have been sexually assaulted or not…
When I was in high school, I was 18, sexually active and had slept (consensually) with 2 guys (not at once), both boyfriends. I went to a small party one night (while dating the second boyfriend, who didn’t attend). Drinking games were played, I got too drunk, and ended up semi-passed out on a bed. I was sort of drifting in and out and during that time, two very drunk guys had sex with me. I remember saying, “I have a boyfriend” (I think I said “No, I have a boyfriend”, but don’t clearly remember if I used the word “no” or not). The thing is, no I didn’t protest too hard because a) I was really, really drunk and barely with it, but also, the big problem, b) it felt good. I am not, and have not been for the last 17 years, ok with what happened, but I have continuously gone back and forth about what happened.
I was certainly not the kind of girl who would do that… or was I? I mean, it felt good. A “good girl” wouldn’t have felt good.
I made the bad decision to have too much to drink and put myself in the situation… but does that give them the right take advantage of the situation?
They too were only 17 or 18 and very drunk… does that excuse their actions in any way?
I didn’t fight and scream NO… but I certainly never said yes.
I really don’t know where I stand on it, even now. I can strongly say I was “taken advantage of”, but beyond that I really don’t know, and that makes it very hard to heal.
I am impressed by the number of different little dioramas you built to put in between yourself and the actual subject at hand. Here we all are on the internet. Could you please point out where these people are who are so influential and important that you have to address them all the time instead of the people you’re actually talking to? Because, aside from the fact that I admittedly don’t actually believe in gender equality, and mostly I just say I’m a feminist so I think I’m daring and will want to have sex with myself because I stood up to Der Trihs on the internet, I have talked to a lot of feminists who have a lot of opinions that are pretty far from the mainstream. I’ve never heard anyone say anything that could be even loosely paraphrased as saying that BRUSHING UP against someone is rape. So, even though you were absolutely right and totally justified in making your armchair diagnoses of me personally, now that that really important business has been attended to maybe you can address what you actually said? Who says those things? Where are they? Where’d you read it?
[QUOTE=Tristan]
Hey, thanks for taking the ONE thing in my post that was allegorical to discuss.
As for providing an example, well, I can’t. I’m posting from work right now, and I’d rather not have the network guys see me googling up a bunch of questionable topics.
But the fact that the idea is perpetuated that there are people (usually identified as radical feminsists) are out there is something to dwell on. IF you absolutely will require me to dig up some cites on women who are on record as stating that any sexual advance by a male that is not invited is potentially abuse, I will do so when I get home. I am certain they are out there, just as I am certain they are the fringe element.
[/QUOTE]
I apologize. I thought that was a pretty innocuous question and honestly just wanted to know. I didn’t mean it as an attack. I’m still not sure how to read that allegorically or as anything other than a reference to people who really believe that.
I hear a lot on these boards about those radical feminists. By any normal measure, I know people who are radical feminists. I’ve never seen or heard of anybody claiming, even at their most combative and uncompromising, that “any unwanted sexual advance, no matter what, is rape.” And, you know, this has happened before on these boards. It’s happened again in this thread. There are all these ludicrous opinions constantly being advocated on behalf of radical feminists in absentia by people other than radical feminists. I don’t think it’s unfair, in the context of this discussion, to clarify who we’re talking about, and whether they in fact exist, and in what numbers. So who says that? If you didn’t actually mean that people believe the quoted statement, then I don’t understand what point you were making about hurting the cause.
I can look up the cite later if anyone is interested, but there was a study back in the 1980s that involved interviewing convicted rapists. A lot of them didn’t see themselves as rapists – even when they hadn’t known their victim, had broken into her home or workplace, and had to threaten her with a weapon to get her to submit. And they weren’t denying the circumstances surrounding the rape, they just said it hadn’t been a rape because the victim “wanted it”.
Yes, I was going to post this, too. I think in their own twisted ways, even stranger rapists still think their victims deserved it or were complicit in their rapes.
That was probably something by Diana Scully. 20% of the people who admitted what they had done was rape still thought the victim enjoyed it.